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HAHAHA!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by charlestonian
Thanks, charlestonian. Yep... where my family comes from... Arkansas... this is "perfect" English. :lol: :lol: :lol:
:wink:
Scotcher... did you understand this one? :wink:
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Люди, обязательно всовывать в цитату страницу текста, чтобы написать в ответ два слова?
Yes... for complete meaning. On this forum, very often. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
Dobry, you are being an idiot. Ramil said in the very first post:
It is perfectly obvious that Ramil's definition of 'perfect' is 'flawless', and that he is not looking for a theoretical absolute state of perfection.Quote:
Speaking of which - the good source would be texts containing 'perfect English' preferably of modern everyday speaking style rich with modern idioms, with extended vocabulary and with some part of direct speech.
Hell, he even placed the word 'perfect' in inverted commas to acknowledge the distinction.
Now, you are of course free to carry on arguing that a state of perfection cannot exist, by dreaming up the most unreasonable, strictest set of circumstances you can think of, but what logically follows from that assertion is that the question is invalid, and therefore there is no point in continuing the discussion. Thread over, move along, nothing to see here.
All I am saying is that, for the sake of not rendering the thread moot or derailing it with some high-school debating society nonsense, we should perhaps adopt a slightly less stringent, more reasonable definition of 'perfect', i.e. the one Ramil was using in the first place, thus allowing the discussion to stay on topic.
Do you see the difference? I am not saying that your point is wrong, I am saying that it is irrelevant to the question asked in the terms it was asked, and that it is anyway such an obvious truism that it needn't have been mentioned in the first frikkin' place.
scotcher is right. I used the term 'Perfect English' just to put a stress on the fact that I want to find a preferably interesting texts to read which may be considered 'Perfect' in a sense that they are grammatically correct and use modern vocabulary and idioms.
The main difficulty I have when selecting texts is that I don't know whether a picked one shoud be viewed as an example of a correct language usage.
I may read a text written by native English speaker but I wouldn't know whether his speech is correct or not. I have no criteria.
Although strictly speaking it is not a question to me, I'd like to comment. I'm pretty sure, if someone who is not mental sees "behaviour" or "centre" instead of "behavior" or "center" that he is used to, he is not gonna go "OMG, this person is such a godawful speller, definitely not a native speaker". Well, I have certainly been corrected by ukrainians and chinese on those ones. :lol:
Ramil, simply take any fairly well-known fiction book by a modern British or American writer and read it. That will do the trick, after all, they can't be that bad. Otherwise, drop your communist beliefs and come on over to an English-speaking country. :D You'll pick up those nasty articles in no time.
One of the reasons why I love English is because you can say bothQuote:
Originally Posted by scotcher
1. You're being an idiot (not all is lost)
2. You're an idiot (all is lost)
По русски только один вариант - Ты идиот
PS For me the perfect English is that English where you're allowed to use perfect tences. period.
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuvak
Scotcher...Quote:
Originally Posted by scotcher
You know, there is no reason for you to be offensive and nasty and call me an idiot... or say I'm speaking nonsense. I have not been offensive to you. But I've definitely pushed one of your buttons.
I have an opinion and I disagree with you, about your general idea of correct grammatical English. I base my opinion on teaching and working with foreign speakers over many years. But I don't go calling people idiots.
I understand what Ramil wants. I was simply making an important point about trying to find English texts to try to learn correct grammar, and that there is no central authority or "standard" for determining what is "perfect" English.
Scotcher and Ramil...
The fact of the matter... most modern English texts are not written with correct grammar. Most texts are written in a more colloquial style. I sensed that Ramil wanted texts that are "grammatically correct", and most fiction/non-fiction books written today are not.
Even some of our best modern English authors... including Faulkner, James Joyce, Gore Vidal, Thomas Pynchon... do not use "grammatically correct" English.
Nightwatch, for example... I liked the books in Russian, but would you say all the Russian is "grammatically correct"?
But adoc is right. Ramil can pick up a lot of natural, colloquial English by reading modern novels. This would definitely improve his fluency, and natural English.
Ramil, if you like science fiction, start reading Frank Herbert's "Dune" series. Great set of books, well-written, and very good grammar. Stephen King also. I think your level of English is good, and these books are fun to read. These are written in American English. For a British style, then I'd recommend The Harry Potter series. Very well-written, and I learned many British vocabulary words that we never use in America.
For something more literary... try reading anything from William Faulkner, Thomas Pynchon, and Mark Helprin. Helprin's Winter's Tale is well-written, the grammar is excellent, and it's a fun read. American English.
The Lord of the Rings. Tolkien was an English linguist and professor, and these books are written in excellent grammar. British English.
James Joyce's Ulysses. "Joyce" English. Unlike any other English, except perhaps William Faulkner. Joyce was Irish.
William Faulkner's The Sound and the Fury. "Faulkner" English. Faulkner was a Southern American. Very southern! :lol:
Joyce and Faulkner are widely considered to be the two best English authors of the 20th century. Yet, they threw "correct" grammar away, and developed their own styles and grammar... called "stream of consciousness". Pure English, their books are considered classics... and yet they broke all the grammar rules. But their books are masterpieces.
Thomas Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow, Crying of Lot 49, and his others (he's still alive and writing), has developed his own style of English, and also breaks many grammar rules, in a very brilliant and wonderful way. He's probably the best living American author. He is "following in the footsteps" of Joyce and Faulkner.
My main point was that there is no actual authority, anymore, for what is considered "perfect" or "correct" English. Our best authors have broken, and are still breaking many of the old grammar rules for English, and they are essentially evolving and changing English grammar rules.
There is no standard, or authority for grammar anymore. English has divided into many different directions. And there are grammar changes with these divisions. Australian, British, American and Canadian... and within each of those styles, English branches into further divisions.
Добрый, я восхищаюсь твоей сдержанностью и рассудительностью.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobry
You are cool! :D
My thought exactly so I asked because I needed an advice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobry
Russian grammar is tolerant to such things so most of books (good books I'd say :) ) are written with ... well... acceptable grammar.Quote:
Nightwatch, for example... I liked the books in Russian, but would you say all the Russian is "grammatically correct"?
Consider - we don't care about the word order neither do we have articles. Prefixes which are being a nightmare to foreigners don't present any problem because Russian native speakers (and writers) use them instinctively. That would have incorrect spelling (an editor's problem) and style remaining. A bad author has a poor vocabulary and constructs simple sentenses so it's very boring to read them.
Thanks Dobry - you're really Добрый :) An answer I've been waiting for.Quote:
Ramil, if you like science fiction, start reading Frank Herbert's "Dune" series. Great set of books, well-written, and very good grammar. Stephen King also. I think your level of English is good, and these books are fun to read. These are written in American English. For a British style, then I'd recommend The Harry Potter series. Very well-written, and I learned many British vocabulary words that we never use in America.
For something more literary... try reading anything from William Faulkner, Thomas Pynchon, and Mark Helprin. Helprin's Winter's Tale is well-written, the grammar is excellent, and it's a fun read. American English.
The Lord of the Rings. Tolkien was an English linguist and professor, and these books are written in excellent grammar. British English.
James Joyce's Ulysses. "Joyce" English. Unlike any other English, except perhaps William Faulkner. Joyce was Irish.
William Faulkner's The Sound and the Fury. "Faulkner" English. Faulkner was a Southern American. Very southern! :lol:
Joyce and Faulkner are widely considered to be the two best English authors of the 20th century. Yet, they threw "correct" grammar away, and developed their own styles and grammar... called "stream of consciousness". Pure English, their books are considered classics... and yet they broke all the grammar rules. But their books are masterpieces.
Thomas Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow, Crying of Lot 49, and his others (he's still alive and writing), has developed his own style of English, and also breaks many grammar rules, in a very brilliant and wonderful way. He's probably the best living American author. He is of Joyce and Faulkner.
That's another question I needed answer to.Quote:
My main point was that there is no actual authority, anymore, for what is considered "perfect" or "correct" English. Our best authors have broken, and are still breaking many of the old grammar rules for English, and they are essentially evolving and changing English grammar rules.
There is no standard, or authority for grammar anymore. English has divided into many different directions. And there are grammar changes with these divisions. Australian, British, American and Canadian... and within each of those styles, English branches into further divisions.
P.S. You've forgot to mention a Chinese English. I could curse for a week about it.
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I've never encountered these two. A sheer luck maybe. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by charlestonian
That's because your translation into Russian is incorrect. I would translate "you're being an idiot" as "ty vedsyosh sebya kak idiot" or even "nu chto ty kak idiot".Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuvak
Not entirely true. Although the word order in Russian is technically more loose than in English (because we have cases to glue the words together with), reality is that native speakers of Russian normally stick to a few stable constructions. Being too liberal with your word order could in fact make you sound pretentious and in some cases even unnatural. People speak in chunks and within those chunks the word order is more or less fixed.Quote:
we don't care about the word order
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How many times has a man said "I did not call you a bitch I said you're acting like a bitch"? Women don't usually see the distinction here. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuvak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
Bloody articles man! I'm so glad there aren't any in Russian.Quote:
I've never encountered these two. _sheer luck maybe.
Basurero - you're killing all hopes in me :) Thanks anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by basurero
Great list of books and great advice, Dobry. Thank you very much.
I think, that when ESL learners ask for help in studying "perfect English" they just mean the want to talk as grammatically correct as possible, and they want their English to be colourful, descriptive and with good turn of phrase.
I believe the books you mentioned will help.
I still can't choose what version of English should I learn - BE or AE. What do you think? Traditional answer is "learn the version of the country you're going to live in/to visit etc." But I'm not going anywhere, so... That advice doesn't help.
How go you think is it possible for average ESL learner (not a genius) to learn AE and BE equally good and just switch between them when needed?
I know main differencies in spelling between these two, some differencies in grammar and quite a lot pairs of words that mean the same in UK and USA (like elevator/lift, underwear/pants etc.) because at school we studied British English and watching movies I spoiled it with american slang a bit. So now my English is a horrible mess. :lol:
Should I try to "separate" BE and AE or just to "forget" one of them?
It doesnt even really matter. If you speak American english, south african english, or hong kong english, or that god forsaken Canadian "english"... English is english and you'll be understood where ever it is that you go.
Im American, and i'd advise you to learn british english.
1, Because, when you go to britian, people wont think you're a stupid wanker.
2, When you go to American, people will LOVE your accent! And they will ask you if you are from luxemburg!
If you learn american english,
1, no one in america will care
2, no one in the rest of the world will like you.
Yeh lol. It annoys me when foreigners learn American english for no reason. I mean, being born with an accent like that's fair enough, but who would CHOOSE to speak like that? :lol:
LOL
Thanks, guys. :) But I'm afraid I'll not live long enough to develop natural British accent, and I've heard on a few occasions that Russians with their bad English accent are hilarious. :(
PS. Please fell free to correct my mistakes. :wink:
I like English pronounciation more. But people say when they hear me talking English that my accent is rather German than Russian. Maybe this is a consequence of my attempts to learn German in school.
I even speak a little. Ich heisse Ramil, Ich lebe in der Soviet Union in die Stadt Moskau. :)
Probably people think Russian accent means rolling "r" and terrible "th" sound. :roll: My pronouncation is far from native speaker's but usually people say it's not "russian". Once I was even told I sound like a Canadian. I wonder what does it mean? :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramil
My brother-in-law says I also speak more like a German than an Englishman. :) But I'm constantly trying to get rid of those "r" and a habit of saying "Щ" instead of "Ш" in for example word "shиt".
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gRomoZeka
Canadians talk like their mom and dad are also their brother and sister.
If you've ever seen the simpsons on english, Ned flanders is a good example of how canadians talk.
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:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogboy182
Dogboy makes a good argument for studying British English.
I agree with him, for the same reasons.
Actually, it also depends how you will use English. Mainly for conversation? Or academic research? Or business?
If for business, University, or for technical work, then I would suggest AE, as British business and technical English is a little "off" at times, and AE is the most common for international business, the computer industry, manufacturing, etc.
If mainly for general use, reading and conversation, then AE or BE, yes Dogboy is right. Most English speakers will understand you for these purposes. Vocabulary and usage, especially with books, are the major differences between AE and BE.
Your accent and pronounciation will be a big factor though in being understood wherever you are. And if you study BE with a teacher who has a strong accent, and you develop the same strong accent, then you may have difficulty being understood. I have seen this problem happen many times. I can barely understand some Irishmen, or highlands people from Scotland, and from Birmingham, U.K. A friend of mine, one of the best English grammar teachers I know in Madrid, is from rural Scotland. She is an excellent and brilliant teacher, but her accent is so strong I (also her intermediate/upper-intermediate students) often have to ask her to repeat herself... several times sometimes, to understand her. So, she will often teach beginning students grammar, working together with an American teacher for good, clear pronounciation.
I've had many foreign speakers say that AE is actually much easier to understand than BE, because AE's accents tend to be milder than BE, except in a few selected areas... such as Charlestonian's trailer park. :wink: :lol:
Anyway, good luck. :)
Сплатила навеки великая русь...Quote:
Originally Posted by charlestonian
@Dobry,
Thanks for tha props!
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