Thread: A (an) historian

Originally Posted by Dogboy182

A* historian.

Wrong.

"An historian" is perfectly correct.

Now I'm confused...

I thought an hour, because the "h" isn't pronounced, so it should also be an historian. The I started doubting... Is this "h" pronounced or not. I thought it wasn't so I kept the n. Then Dogboy said "a" and I thought: Of course....

Now, I don't think anything anymore...

Depends on wether you're trying to write English or American. American has rules (albeit complicated ones) for deciding between "a" and "an". In English though, in many cases it depends on the language from which the word originated. "History" and "hotel", for example, were both originally French words where initial "h"s aren't pronounced, so they take "an".

Originally Posted by scotcher

Depends on wether you're trying to write English or American. American has rules (albeit complicated ones) for deciding between "a" and "an". In English though, in many cases it depends on the language from which the word originated. "History" and "hotel", for example, were both originally French words where initial "h"s aren't pronounced, so they take "an".

In commonly-used American English, the choice of "a" or "an" is based on pronunciation.

We say "a historian", "an hour", "a hole", "an hors d'oeuvre".

Ignore people who try and tempt you to say "an historical even" it's just horrible. You will never hear anyone except newsreaders and strange people say this. There is no governing body of the English language as there is for the French, so you can say whatever you like, providing it is obvious what it means, thus: realise, realize.

In the English language "h" is usually a consonant and should be treated as such: an (h)our, a horse, a history lesson, a horrific event.....

"an historian" is just ridiculously pedant, like telling people not to split infinitives, though there is absolutely no reason why it is wrong.

it just doesn't like right. by the way, learn american english, more people speak it than british !

I agree that "an historian" sounds stupid, and I wouldn't say it myself. I just thought I should point out that it is, technically speaking, perfectly correct after Dogboy jumped on Gollandski Yosh for using it that way

lol, i never jump on anybody, exept hippies, like i sad, i'm laid back, most of the time i am заколибол at myself.

I have never read such a rule in textbooks -- "an historian", and never heard it even in most weird British accents, may be it's your Scottish way of getting what is grammar?

That's because it's a stupid rule that everyone ignores, like saying "This is he" instead of "This is him" when someone asks for you on the phone. But it is a rule nonetheless.

I have never read such a rule in textbooks -- "an historian", and never heard it even in most weird British accents, may be it's your Scottish way of getting what is grammar?

Nah, if anything Scots are less likely to need this rule, since there aren't any Scottish dialects (that I know of) that 'drop' initial "h"s, unlike a great many English accents/dialects.

Coincidentally, we had an argument about this at work a few days ago. Roughly half the guys in the studio (me included) could distinctly remember being taught this at primary school, the other half knew nothing about it, and there didn't seem to be any ryhme or reason to who was taught it and who wasn't.

::shrug::

That's because it's a stupid rule that everyone ignores, like saying "This is he" instead of "This is him" when someone asks for you on the phone. But it is a rule nonetheless.

Aye. Exactly.

Originally Posted by Dogboy182

it just doesn't like right. by the way, learn american english, more people speak it than british !

IMHO in the European part of Russia it makes more sense to learn British English as we have more social contacts with the British than with Americans. And my sat channels bring me more high quality British stuff than American.

But does it really matter what you're learning? I bet it doesn't as long as you're consistent.

Zen trai tu stadi Pisin Inglis ...

My Dad says: "An historian" and also "an hotel"

But then he also says "It is I" and spells "show" like "shew". He tells me off if I say "He's taller than me" rather than "He's taller than I". He hates split infinitives, can't stand the use of "hopefully" to mean "I hope": he uses it only to mean "with hope" and he uses the now obsolete: "therefor" and "herefor".

Actually he resigned from the "Queen's English Society" because they got something wrong.

So, yes, "an historian" is technically "correct", but I think most English people wouldn't even notice. "Posh" newspapers generally write "an historian", so I think both are completely acceptable.

You do have to be aware of the differences between British and American English. When I lived in America I kept a dictionary of differences. I split it into three sections

Words that had different meanings (eg car bonnet/ car hood)
Words that had different spellings but the same pronunciation (centre/center)
Words that had different pronunciation (usually where the stress is) but the same, or similar spelling (HimaLAYa, HimALaya)

I can't remember the exact numbers, but in a year I collected 3 or 4 hundred in the first category and thousands in the other two categories.

I think the last two categories are interesting, but not a problem. But the first category is very serious. I remember my Dad telling a little boy how he used to make "gas bombs" as a child. The father came over and got very angry with my Dad. But to us "gas" means methane and, ok, filling a tin up with methane and setting fire to it is dangerous, but nothing like as dangerous as filling it up with petrol!

Also my Mum used to tell me to "keep on the pavement", which really worried people walking past: "pavement" means the tarmac they put on the roads in American, but means "sidewalk" in English.

The British usually have learnt most (but not all) of these differences, but Americans usually don't realise and the potential for serious misunderstandings exist.

And do "more people speak American English"? I'm not sure I want to get into the argument, afterall I'm sure the original comment wasn't very serious, so please take this the same way : but I think Australian, New Zealand, Canadian, Indian ... Englishes are more similar to British English than to American?

Originally Posted by woolliamser

Also my Mum used to tell me to "keep on the pavement", which really worried people walking past: "pavement" means the tarmac they put on the roads in American, but means "sidewalk" in English.

Could you tell me what "quid" means? I understood it's a unit of money, but I don't know how much.

Originally Posted by Pravit

Could you tell me what "quid" means? I understood it's a unit of money, but I don't know how much.

'quid' means 'pound sterling'. btw, the plural of quid is quid, thus five quid.

Right. So what is it with the British capitalizing the word Okay all the time? I was reading 'Bravo Two Zero', and the author wrote like this:
"Chris! I can't believe you're alive! Are you Okay?"
"Right. Bloody Iraqis shoot me through the foot! I'm on my chinstrap here!"

that spelling is acceptable, but it is capitalised because the real form is OK (standing for Oll Korrect in the style of the time to make yourself look like a moron by deliberate mizztakez)

Originally Posted by woolliamser

Words that had different pronunciation (usually where the stress is) but the same, or similar spelling (HimaLAYa, HimALaya)

Like "sanatorium" and "sanitarium"?
I think "Sanitarium" is so misspelled and incorrectly understood a form, that it is not worth being seriously spoken of.

[quote]
Also my Mum used to tell me to "keep on the pavement", which really worried people walking past: "pavement" means the tarmac they put on the roads in American, but means "sidewalk" in English.
[/qoute]
And I remember as one woman nearly fighted with another woman in St.Petersburg who said: "Пускай ваша дочь на панели постоит", because in Petersburg "панель" means "a sidewalk/pavement" but in other Russia the expression "пойти на панель" means "to be a prostitute" and "sidewalk" is "тротуар".