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I wonder which role in English commas do. In Russian commas make structure of a sentense and they have strong rules of use. In Russian sentenses without commas become incomprehensible. But I see that English texts almost never contain commas. English seems to be language which does not use commas. So is it true that it has no rules about commas and I can put it wherever needed. Or maybe some rules do exist?
Commas are used a lot in English! Maybe you just read too many websites by illiterate idiots. They're used in lists, to make compound sentences, to create appositive clauses, and probably a lot of other things I can't think of. Examples:
A list - an apple, three rabbits, forty-five pylons, and a fudge brownie
A compound sentence - We sat around all day waiting for the post officer, but he never arrived.
An appositive clause - Mr. Brown, the post officer, had suffered blunt force trauma and was lying incapacitated in his garage.
Yes, these examples are understandable. But how about comma before "but"? In your sentese it is, but I read many texts, not only from stupid websites, when it was not used. Does "but" always have comma before itself? And what with other words? For example, in Russian it must be put before "when" ("когда"), "which" ("который"), "to" ("чтобы").
You don't always use a comma before, especially if it is replacing "yet." Only use a comma if you are using "but" to make a complete clause that is saying something contrary to the clause before it. For example:
It was a soft but violent rainstorm.
We went to the theater, but it was closed.
I use a comma where I would make a pause when speaking out loud. It's a simple rule for a native speaker, but probably not easy for a foreigner learning English.
I know the basic rules about commas in lists, commas to separate subordinate clauses and so on. But I'm afraid I don't always get it right.
I think someone else mentioned the fact that in British schools, in the 1980s and 1990s, they decided not to teach us grammar. This probably explains why most people my age here know even less English grammar than I do! And this perhaps explains why you've seen a lot of badly written documents!
There is one thing I'm sure of, though, Mike's example:
an apple, three rabbits, forty-five pylons, and a fudge brownie
is valid for American English only. British English would definitely not put a comma before the "and":
an apple, three rabbits, forty-five pylons and a fudge brownie.
Hm, interesting… I don't say that English doesn't use commas, but comparing with Russian texts I really have such impression that English texts contain much less commas. Maybe it is because of improperly used rules, as you said. But so, what amount of illiteracy can English people have? It's unbelievable! From your answers it seems that English and Russian have almost the same rules of punctuation. I just don't understand why people don't use them. By the way what sites can you recommend to see proper punctuation? Can it be BBC, CNN, Washingtonpost? I'd like to see normal English.
And one question. There are such rule of punctuation as "sentense in a sentense". For example, this sentense in Russian is written properly:
Я, рабочий завода, иду на работу. (I, a worker of a plant, am going to the work).
This sentense (Я иду на работу) contains small sentense inside itself (рабочий завода). It does not change the meaning of the main sentense, it just add some small details. In Russian such inserted sentese must be bordered by commas. If I remove this small sentense, the main sentense will not lose its main sense. If I would write it in English do I put commas before and after the small sentese or not? (Not just in this example)
DO NOT look at journalism for proper grammar! It uses its own style that is much more simplified. It has to do with saving as much space as possible in newspapers. A good example is what woolliamser mentioned: the lists that lack the final comma. This is very common in American newspapers because it saves space, but in proper English it is discouraged.
http://webster.commnet.edu/grammar/commas.htm
I wouldn't say English uses too few commas, but rather that Russian uses too many of them. :-)
As for the "sentence inside sentence", you must set the inner sentence with comma before and after in English, just like you would do that in Russian. In that specific case, "a worker of a plant" is not technically a sentence. But your right in saying that it only adds information, and could be left out.
I know German uses a lot more commas than English and I expect Russian does too.
I would definitely use commas to separate a phrase within a sentence that could safely be left out. I would definitely add commas to Tu-160's example.
In "proper" English (ie as spoken in England :lol: ... alright, in "proper British English" if you really must!) that comma before the "and" is definitely not there! The only exception is when there are lots of "ands" e.g.
I had a cup of tea, fish and chips, and toast.
Although I, personally, would move this list around to prevent the problem:
I had fish and chips, a cup of tea and toast.
Have a look at:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/skillswise/words/g ... ndex.shtml
I do think the BBC webpage writes "good English". But you have to be a bit careful with that.
I know in Germany, for example, they have a book called "Duden". Duden is "instructions for speaking German". It is correct and if you write differently you are wrong. When I lived in Germany they were rewriting Duden and debating about the details of whether the changes were good or bad.
In England this would seem crazy. We have the Oxford English Dictionary, for words and spellings, and Fowler's Modern English Grammar. But these are a description of "how good English is spoken", not instructions. In other words: English changes. English has been influenced by so many different languages and cultures and has changed considerably over the years. It then split into different "Englishes" for all the countries where it has been spoken. Now these are re-influencing each other (I have noticed a lot of American spellings, pronunciations and words creeping into English, particularly over the last 10 years).
My father strongly tries to prevent this. He still spells "show" as "shew", since "shew" is how it was spelt in Britain prior to American influences in the 1920s! He is very strict about not splitting infinitives, about saying "It's I" rather than "It's me" since "It is" takes the nominative! In some ways he's "right" - he follows the rules precisely as they were in his 1895 (?) copy of "Fowler", but he sounds very funny and is the only one to do it.
So just a warning: if you're looking for definitive instructions for English, you might not find them! :P
I was going to say something to Tu-160 then read that last post, and now I've forgotten.
Oh, right. I would agree with ekalin that it's not so much a matter of English using too few commas, but Russian using very many. Another thing I've noticed is that British literature seems to have much longer and compounded sentences than American does. Though I guess this has more to do with culture and contemporary writing styles than grammatical rules. A funny example of this is The Stranger by Camus, which he wrote in "American style" French (i.e. choppy, brief sentences that mimic speech).
Good links!
It is almost true. When I was making my newspaper at university I found that when following to all rules of Russian punctuation in long complex sentenses I have to put commas almost after each word. It hides all the structure and sentense becomes incomprehensible. I solved this problem by using less number of commas. Of course, I broke some rules of punctuation but, sounds strangely, it made the sentense better.Quote:
Originally Posted by ekalin
Although, it is true that Russian uses commas more than English, judging by your all posts, Tu-160, I have come to conclusion that you do not master your native russky "on the level"; and respectively it is now understood how you struggled with it in your paper.
Usage of commas do differ in E. and R. and it can be easily tracked down through the numerous links all you post to each other, down here, on this site. (For what hell you post them and don't try to read remains a blatant example of ordinary people attempting to master something). :cry: Or what about an elementary school book?
Sorry for the truth.
I give up on you...
P.S. Mike gave right away an example of usage of an appositive clause in English, and (!) obviously without reading - or what? - Tu-160 brings an illiterate "sentence in sentence" question. I give up on you, certainly
What do you mean that I'm struggled? I don't have difficulties with my Russian, I know it nice. Of course, I know that Canadian Russian is much more clear and correct than Russian one, but despite of it I'm not going to listen to advises about master my "native russky" from Canada.
Why do you suggest me elementary school books? I've never seen such books which explain English punctuation. Otherwise I wouldn't ask such stupid question.
You want to teach me English? Or you just try to find illiterate questions? Or maybe it is discovery for you, that English is not my native language? So why don't you give me all 5'687'356 literal English expressions with literal Russian translation?
Thanks to Mike, Woolliamser, Ekalin, at least I know, what Englishmen think about it. Your post is just bunch of bytes.
need help with apostraphies? :lol:
I have corrected. Is that better?
Hey, i miss a p**sing contest last night or what??
TU-160, your written English is just fine, the way i see it is, if you can understand what the other person is saying, than THAT'S GOOD ENOUGH!
True, English as seen in the press is best left alone, the possibilities for double meanings are endless:
MONTY FLIES BACK TO FRONT
GISCARD KEEPS MUM ON CONCORDE
FRENCH PUSH BOTTLES UP GERMANS
This is on of the biggest no no's! In proper written English, you should never determine where your comma's go based on the order of your thought process. This is one of my biggest mistakes in rough drafts. I always have to go back through and delete my comma's.Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by woolliamser
I don't ALWAYS write correctly in this forum because I am writing comments and thoughts. That is one reason Mike said not to look at journalism. Journalism is judged based on its integrity and ideas, so the correct use of grammer is often irrelevant. In English, there is a proper way to use grammer, and it is used when necessary.
There seems to be alot of confusion over comma usage in a series.
These are both correct: The sweater comes in blue, green, pink and black.
The sweater comes in blue, green, pink, and black.
Usually the last sentence is more acceptable by college professors.
I studied english grammer in depth last semester, and did quite well with it. If you have any questions, PLEASE email me, I would love to help (JLChambers@nc.rr.com). If you want a good book, try to find Handbook for Writers, by Simon & Schuster. This is your English grammer bible! :lol: [/u]
sentence in a sentence- these are called defining and non-defining (undefining? can't remember) clauses. A comma must be used around an non-defining clause but not around a defining clase.
Defining clause: The man [WHO WAS 37] was asleep. (sorry crap sentence there)
Non-defining clause: The man, [who was 37,] was asleep.
The first sentence tells you that a 37 year old man was asleep. The second tells you that a man was asleep. He happens to be 37 by the way. In the second sentence the clause could be left out and the main point would remain.
The are used to give the reader a rest at certain times or to replace brakets. ie I was walking down the street with Jim's sister, whose name is Mary, and a monster poped out". That is how ya use them. i know i didn't understand fully and I live in australia.
That's odd I was always told that you should NEVER use a comma before an and in a list ,and (see that'snot incorrect there, I'm going on to a different idea, not just listing) I would be astonished if a British teacher/proffesor told me to use it before the final item on a list. It is almost always incorrect to say ",and" because a comma is essentially a short-form way of writing "and" in most cases
P.S. please could the non-native (and native!) english speakers note: grammAr sentenCe, not grammer and sentense
Perhaps Brits are taught differently (which makes it weird that the last comma is called an Oxford).
From Jack Lynch's Guide to Grammar and Style:
Quote:
In most house styles, the comma is preferred before the last item in a list: "the first, second, and third chapters." (This is known as the serial comma or the Oxford comma.) Leaving it out — "the first, second and third chapters" — is a habit picked up from journalism. While it saves a teensy bit of space and effort, omitting the final comma runs the risk of suggesting the last two items (in the example above, the second and third chapters) are some sort of special pair. A famous (and perhaps apocryphal?) dedication makes the danger clear: "To my parents, Ayn Rand and God."
the only thing i remember my teachers ever saying about commas is like, it is like a period. but not quite as strong, use a comma to put a break in a long sentence, a stop between thoughts, or for a short pause before moving on. i think i have used several good examples of comma's in the paragraph . =P
Quote:
I know German uses a lot more commas than English and I expect Russian does too.
...
In "proper" English (ie as spoken in England :lol: ... alright, in "proper British English" if you really must!) that comma before the "and" is definitely not there! The only exception is when there are lots of "ands" e.g.
...
So just a warning: if you're looking for definitive instructions for English, you might not find them! :P
-- Well, if English wasn't my first language (even though it shouldn't be), I wouldn't have a clue of all the slang on programmes. Prime example, Coronation Street. 'Proper' English is hard to find nowadays. And don't get my started about the inncorrect uses of the apostrophe! :D
Oh Ok, I won't...
window's daffodil's apple's
Quote:
"To my parents, Ayn Rand and God."
:lol:
Well, it seems this famous saying is not applicable to English :)
(It's good when students have many original ideas. But there is an area, where any of them is an error. This is grammar*.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Академик Лихачев
* "Правописание" in Russian means all of grammar, spelling, punctuation etc.
A bit off topic 'cause it's in Russian, but it's one of the funniest examples of double-meaning sentences without quotes. Try to put commas correctly :)
Очень-очень странный вид
Речка за окном горит
Чей-то дом хвостом виляет
Пёсик из ружья стреляет
Мальчик чуть не слопал мышку
Кот в очках читает книжку
Старый дед влетел в окно
Воробей схватил зерно
Да как крикнет улетая:
"Вот что значит запятая!"
Борис Заходер