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An I'm-just-wondering thread. :-)
America has always been a symbol of ideal life: low prices, high life quality, wealth, civilization... Almost every second person on Earth wishes he was born in the US. But no place on Earth is a paradise, and there will always be people who long for changes. What don't you like about your country? Why have you chosen Russia as a place to relocate to?
Please, share your motivation!
To whom?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mist
Er... Are you kidding?? :-o :mrgreen:Quote:
low prices
Where did you get these statistics?Quote:
Almost every second person on Earth wishes he was born in the US.
To the whole world. At least this is the way the states keep positioning themselves. One gotta be blind not to notice it. In fact the word "symbol" here is more like a synonym of "stereotype".Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Hey! Waky-waky! Compare fuel prices in USA with those in Russia. There are a lot of things America gets for free. Should I explain the world famous dollar trick? Plus compare American salary and welfare rates with those of Russia. :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
That's just what I hear from people around me. Maybe not every second, but just very many people. The USA is quite a successful country, so I just can't get what there's to escape from. So I'd like to hear from those willing to change America or Europe for Russia. Pretty interesting. I love Russia, but still I used to face the truth: it's not the best country to relocate to - no offence, just my opinion. It's ok if you are born in Russia, but for a European / American it may appear to be a little bit wild.Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Please don't say on behalf of the whole world.Quote:
To the whole world.
Exactly. I expected the answer to be "to Americans".Quote:
At least this is the way the states keep positioning themselves.
I actually don't think we can find an American who would agree with you about "low prices" in America... But we should better ask Americans. Not everyone in America has a good salary and welfare, and fuel is not everything.Quote:
Hey! Waky-waky! Compare fuel prices in USA with those in Russia. There are a lot of things America gets for free. Should I explain the world famous dollar trick? Plus compare American salary and welfare rates with those of Russia.
Mist, I am very sorry to tell you this and don't want to hurt you, but... if I remember well, you are from Ryazan. A small provincial town, not so far from Moscow, by the way... You know, before I read this thread, I didn't know how big is the difference in thinking in Moscow or Saint Petersburg and that in small towns like Ryazan where people only dream every day to leave for "somewhere". To think that everyone is happy in America, it's so naive. Like living in Ryazan and thinking that if people there wish they were born in America that's how it is on the whole Earth. I assure you, in Moscow or StP people around you do not think that America is the best place in the world, and not every second person at all dreams to be born in the USA. At least, I never met anyone of the kind. America is just another country with its own drawbacks, where beggary exists, too.Quote:
That's just what I hear from people around me. Maybe not every second, but just very many people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Just watch a bit of American movies, at least.
Are things really so bad in Ryazan?
For me there are a lot of reasons, and it isn't so much that I dislike the USA, as that there are many things I like about Russia and Ukraine. First and foremost: they speak Russian! Everybody does, it's great! Also, I really like the people. If I might make a generalization, Americans might have more money, but Russians have more value. Does that make sense?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mist
where are all these people that want to move to Russia? Maybe Chinese and Vietnamese. :roll:
As far as job searching is concerned, yes, they really are. I'm looking for a job where I could apply my foreign language abilities, but here in Ryazan there're very few such openings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Another thing is that one shouldn't compare life in small Russian towns with that in St. Pete and Moscow. Big cities are other Russia, it's just like in any country.
I'd love to move to some English speaking country for the same reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matroskin Kot
That's a very laudable motive, but upholding values it is not an easy way to go. I hope you understand what I mean.Quote:
Originally Posted by Matroskin Kot
I don't dispute that, but it's just that every second person in Ryazan is not every second person on Earth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mist
And for me it seems like every person both in Moscow in StP is absolutely not the rest of Russia, needles to say the rest of the world. I presume that most of inhabitans of both American continents excluding Canadians would like to get the citizenship of the United States. Most of the people living in Africa and Eastern Europe try to leave their lands and move to the Western Europe. If the USA were closer all those people would chouse to live there and not in their own homecounries.
Оль, seems like the citizen of Ryazan has more rights to speak for the rest of Russia and even the rest of the World than anyone who lives in Moscow or StP.
Лёва, I think that inhabitants of Ryazan can only speak for Ryazan as well as Muscovites can speak for Moscow and residents of St. Petersburg for St. Petersburg. That's all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leof
And I actually think that many people in "the rest of Russia" wish to be born in Moscow. As said, we do not have statistics of that.
I agree.
But eventually Ryazan is much more like the rest of Russia. That why I thought the view from Ryazan is more objective.
It's like to say that the inhabitans of your house can speak only for your house and not for the rest of StP.
Рязанцы и россияне ближе к тождеству чем москвичи и россияне. Россия начинается где-то за МКАДой.
Во-первых, сам факт наличия жизни за МКАД-ой ещё не доказан.
And the second, nobody want to live in Russia except Russians.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15701Quote:
Originally Posted by SAn
I'd say exept some Russians.
I was trying to find for myself the answer for the original question and get some ideas.
The main reason why the Americans (or elseone) could want to live in Russia is very because the reasons which Mist named above. What I mean is that there is the sort of people which always look for changes and adventures or even for неприятностей на свою ass. Like Feodor Koniuhov. People which are thirsty to свершений, событий and испытаний на hardness. Some go to the polar expedition, others take the full circle trip or climb the mountains. Some start to learn Japanese or work as the Medics withour boarders and risk to catch Abola or HIV or to be killed by some separatists in Combogia. And some move to Russia. They do not want all what Mist listed.
I am sure that the ones whom Mist was asking are so rare and unique people that I am not astonished there are some.
But many people move to Russia because they can earn here lots of money. Some specialists are very wanted, not to say the stereotypes which are in our blood make all foreigners look higher and more clever that they are.
An American, a man in a nice suit and white shirt, nicely parfumed, with a strong accent and American name can somehow give ten points to the Russian man which looks the same. Why? Because since the Peter the Great we are acustomed to learn from the European samples.
So, Mist, everything you noticed works like the advantage for everyone who come in Russia from America.
Excellent :good:Quote:
Originally Posted by Leof
— I live in Russia.
— You live in Russia?!
— Yep.
— Cool!
— If this is so cool, then may be you want to go here too?
— No, thank you. I will not survive.
I'm from America, and would like to live in Russia someday. But, I'm the type who has wanderlust. I'm fascinated with foreign language and culture, and wherever it takes me, I will go. Seems to me that every country has its benefits and problems - some which may not be evident at first. I love America, but there are many social problems I would rather do without... however, the push for freedom in all areas of life is the factor behind this. So I suppose I'd rather have those freedoms, despite what they may bring, when there are other countries in the world living in oppression, etc.
But I think that's a bit off topic. Anyway, I enjoy reading people's posts about Russia here, because I won't truly be able to judge or experience the country until I live/visit there. In the same way America's greatness may be overexaggerated, I feel the stereotypes of Russia that I've grown up with are probably overexaggerated as well.
I think this report will be very interesting to read: http://web.archive.org/web/200706202354 ... 05_HDI.pdf . It compares different countries. The report is from this site: http://hdrstats.undp.org/countries/coun ... s_RUS.html
Also you may be interested how the toilets looks like in Russia before visiting this country:
http://img-2004-02.photosight.ru/09/407428.jpg
http://taiyo-vostok.ru/images/toilet.jpg
http://img-2006-01.photosight.ru/13/1221926.jpg
Я вот не понимаю, в чем удовольствие и смысл поливать собственную страну, передергивать, выдирая самые неприглядные кадры и умалчивая о том, что ты нашел именно такие картинки специально. На последней картинке - это вообще не туалет, это бывший и неработающий туалет. Зачем пытаться убедить инстранцев, что у нас ВСЕ туалеты такие? Боишься, что они все сюда приедут и тебе места не хватит?Quote:
Originally Posted by SAn
2 SAn
В любом поселке любой страны таких toilets навалом.
Блин, я ведь не серьёзно. Это была шутка. А отчёт, ссылку на который я дал, всё же рекомендую почитать. Много интересного.
Но не стоит отрицать, что в России плотность таких туалетов на душу населения явно выше, чем в США. Советую зайти в общественные туалеты в вокзалах, школах, и других государственных организациях.
В моём блоке общаги, когда я только поселился, унитаз был чёрный от грязи, смыв не работал, на пол лилась канализация из пробитой трубы, и в ней копошились черви. Мне пришлось голой спиной лежать в этой канализации и червях, чтобы заделать трубу эпоксидкой, и замотать бинтом, перемешанным со шпатлёвкой (труба была под унитазом, иначе как лёжа к ней не подберёшься).
Когда я попросил у соседей удлинитель, чтобы включить фен, чтобы прогреть эпоксидку, чтобы лучше держалась, они сказали, что сейчас «гамают» (играют на компьютере), и удлинитель поэтому занят. А то, что я хочу починить унитаз — так «это моя проблема, и я не должен со своими проблемами лезть к ним и мешать гамать». В нашей общаге треть унитазов выглядят так, как показано но последней фотке (только не разбиты). Общежитие Московского Физико-Технического Института, ведущего технического ВУЗа страны.
:roll: Yess... Acknowledged!Quote:
Originally Posted by SAn
Ну, про туалеты. В американском кино очень часто показывают именно такие туалеты в школах с неблагополучным климатом. И уж точно, что во всех фильмах в жанре "Поворот не туда" показывают именно такие вот туалеты.
А! Это! Хотел сказать, что многие российские телеканалы грешат именно такими вот сортирными взглядами на российскую действительность. НТВ например. Ситуация такая, что миллионам людей впихивают это в башку.
То есть, это в рамках нормального, пугать иностранцев, если уж нас самих стараются напугать.
+1 Эт точно! Мне один иностранный гражданин как-то раз сказал: " А вы, оказывается, нормальные! А мы у себя в стране думаем, что у вас медведи по улицам ходят!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Leof
This vision of an "American dream" is nothing but Hollywood propaganda. What you see in American movies and television isn't like real life. Most Americans don't live like the "kids" in Beverly Hills 90210 :p That's not to say America is a terrible country, but amongst developed nations, it doesn't even rank near the top in living standards. And even the countries that do are only there because of raw statistics, which removes the human aspect from it all.Quote:
America has always been a symbol of ideal life: low prices, high life quality, wealth, civilization... Almost every second person on Earth wishes he was born in the US.
Some American cities are even comparable to third world countries, with murder and aids rates similar to what you'd find in Africa (like Washington for example). On the other hand, some Russian cities (like Moscow and St. Pete) are comparable to the developed world, and much more safe and clean that those worst places in America. Those particular cities don't represent the countries as a whole of course, and neither does San's hometown in Russia and his terrible experiences with toilets represent the entire country as a whole. Every city and town is different, some are better, some worse. One cannot judge the living standards of an entire country on personal experiences alone unless they themselves have lived in every region and experienced it all, especially countries as huge and diverse as Russia and America. And by the sounds of things, you've never even been to America!
As a Canadian myself, I can think of many reasons why someone from the western world would want to live in Russia (or at least visit for an extended period of time). If I were given the opportunity, I'd jump at it in a second. Going beyond the reasons stated by others above, all you would need to do is observe how the average person here spends an average day. You would see just how empty, dumb, depressed and morally bankrupt we are as a society.
Here's an interesting fact: Antidepressants are the most prescribed drug in America, with 1 in 10 women over 18 taking them. It's just as bad here in Canada. Do they need those drugs because they live happy, fulfilling lives? :no:
Well that's pretty easy. First of all my girlfriend is Russian. Besides that, I have lived in Russia for 5 months and I loved it. Why? I don't know. It's hard to say, but something attracts me. Oh and once you managed to find a nice apartment, the rest is all super cheap. That's what it is, compared to the Netherlands. Enough reasons for me.
Here's an interesting fact: Antidepressants are the most prescribed drug in America, with 1 in 10 women over 18 taking them. It's just as bad here in Canada. Do they need those drugs because they live happy, fulfilling lives? :no:
yes... and you know why? i think it happen because live in america is much easily than in russia, in our case we have no time for the Antidepressants and psychologist, in addition we can't pay for that, it's for rich people... we even don't think about it...
and every time when life come to normal way, a government do something... to make our life more extremal...
concerning prices, yes, our prices is lower than yours, but and our real wages is more lower, for example wages in my city about 5000-40000 rub in month ~150-1250usd... how you like that? 40000 is very gooood for my place (no one of my friend have it) (not for the moscow)!
Who want talk about it - PM to me, i have much more to say.
sorry for my english.
Antidepressants in Russia are replaced with vodka :)
))) 100% :good:
and bears )
hey misty... it may takes a little 'latent' way of thinking that would answers a lot of your question and worries :pardon:
Random Fact, homes in view from my Window start around
$1,250,000
or 37,536,413.66959 RUB
low prices my ass...
and thats for a family house.
I dont like living in America, I want to move back to Europe [Netherlands, or Russia]
And, of course, the inevitable balalayka. :mosking:Quote:
Originally Posted by FedorV
No worries about your English, just keep practicing..Quote:
Originally Posted by FedorV
But can I ask you something?
How can they live on less than USD 1000 a month?
What kinds of jobs do the people have who make such salaries?
i am guessing that they do not own their flat, but rent it --- what's the rent for a decent flat?
How much does it cost to buy groceries (normal food) per month in your city?
After paying the rent (or mortgage) and food, can they afford to go to a restaurant, buy clothes, buy stuff like an ipod, books, computer equipment?
How much does a programmer make? (I am wondering because I work in IT).
In Russia, even in Moscow, $1000 is quite enough for one (or even two) person to eat well and pay public services (water, electricity, heating, etc); and for some other incidental expenses. If one has his own flat, of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
40000 is a good salary for Moscow, too (not the best, though).
For one whose salary is 5000 or 10000 is impossible to rent a flat. The rent depends on a city, and the difference can be very very big. In Moscow, the rent for a one-room flat (that is, a hall, a bathroom unit, a kitchen, and one room) is very high, and also depends on the flat condition and a district (also the proximity to the metro). I don't know... I suppose the very lowest price is... 20 000? (but it's only because of the crisis; before the crisis, it was about 25000 already).Quote:
I am guessing that they do not own their flat, but rent it --- what's the rent for a decent flat?
In Petersburg, those prices are much lower. You can rent a two-rooms flat for 15000 (or even less), and just a room (that is the flat owner lives in the flat, too) for about 5000 (depends on the room's size).
30.000 - 50.000r is an average salary for a programmer. IT is one of the most perspective spheres in Russia nowadays. I can say that because i'm working as a network engineer here myself.Quote:
How much does a programmer make? (I am wondering because I work in IT).
You shouldnt worry about medical ensurance here too. Its free. The rent for an appartment outside Moscow will cost something near 5000-15000 r. The grocery and everything else - it all depends on your expectations :) but 20.000r for a normal life for a one person is quite enough.
And about all those Russian guys who want to find a better life abroad and showing rural toilets here. I think that a person may complain about the life here only if he didnt find a place for himself. And I strongly doubt that such a person will manage to find a good job in a foreign country. And if you hope that a government will support you there and you will get everything for free so I wish you good luck. :) The life somewhere isn't much easier and better.Quote:
America has always been a symbol of ideal life: low prices, high life quality, wealth, civilization... Almost every second person on Earth wishes he was born in the US.
Easy, i already have a flat. And my wage before the economic crisis happens was very good (more than 1500 usd), i had my own busines. I still have it, but now it is not so good work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna
If you want to see about wages you can see http://www.moyareklama.ru/search1.php?sc=7 region is Белгород.
Fore example, average wage programmers is about 15000-25000 (for a good programmer in good company). Teacher is 5000-10000. Accountant - 10000-17000. As you can see it is less then 1000 USD. And 20000 is very good they think.
The rent of studio flat is about 8000-16000. It's depends on place and furniture.
But now we too can buy it using mortgage. So many peoples use it.
By the way...
Khm... I disagree with that. It's normal if you already have a flat. But if you live alone and you haven't the flat...Quote:
Originally Posted by Оля
Many of my friends live in Moscow right now. They gone to Moscow to got money, they work hard and get about 60000-80000 (few of them 100000, it is good) in month (they all are programmers). To rent a flat you must pay about 20000-30000 in month. Food, transport and relaxation with friends is not low-price too. So they tell to me they can keep not much from their wage.
))) I didn't say so. Maybe in Moscow it is free. But in my place it's free only in paper. In fact you must pay for a "normal" medicine. Not long time ago, this summer, one of my friends hurt his hand very much, we gone to a hospital, and we had to pay to doctor 500r for his job (free job :) ), or we didn't get any anaesthetic or other cure (we pay not in the cash desk, we gave the bribe). And while i sit there and wait for my friend, to the hospital arrive another girl, a dog bite her. Not much, but there was some blood and went is make some trouble for her. And know what they did? They refused to heal her and refered her to another hospital. When she gone, I heard one of doctors say it would a trouble to cure her because there might be infection and it's hard to cure. That's why they refer her...Quote:
Originally Posted by vj1k
I don't want to live in country like that )))) This is only one of exemples...
I have some exemples )) But most of them had a good work here. And they leave russia only because of that i wrote on top. You can get good money here, but things don't changes, a goverment remain, peoples remain, law remain (lawlessness)Quote:
Originally Posted by vj1k
of couse imho... if only somebody understand a word...
So you do agree with me. Because I mean it's good for Muscovites, that is for those who have a flat. If you read my post carefully, you'd understand that I meant that.Quote:
Originally Posted by FedorV
No. It's no "good", maybe it's possible to live, but not "good", i think so. I would say it closely to minimum for live. If you alone. But if you have a partner, it's maybe OK. However, as i know, salary for programmers begins from about 40000r in moscow.
I want you to understand me correctly. It is the good country, here live many good people, most of men i know is good. And you can normaly make one's living. And maybe it more simple than in USA, but actualy to do that you must break the law. And all that things going wrong with medicine, police, goverment, taxes and others area of life. And i think that's never change here. A long time ago goverment says to peoples that all going to be good over 5-10 years. And still no changes. And always it will be. "Someday all gonna be good". And you have no confidence in the future. The next day goverment make do something and you ought to sell yours flat to cover yours arrearages.
Like they do it now increasing taxes by twice http://www.rian.ru/society/20091024/190344231.html .
You missed my point. If people live happy lives, they shouldn't need prescription drugs. Forget about comparing countries. Just look at America or Canada on its own. We're supposed to be the greatest countries in the world...but by what measure? How easy life is? It seems the easier life becomes, the more worthless, shallow and ignorant our society becomes, and the worse our mental health becomes. An easier life doesn't necessarily mean a happier or better life.Quote:
Originally Posted by FedorV
Gosh I forgot that I had posted in this room and didn't see the response until now.
Very interesting. Thanks Olya and the others who explained about the costs etc.
I have been considering the possibility of spending a bit of time in Russia -- I am also in the software industry, a project manager. Depending on what the possibilities are. Maybe a year from now. Either as an international project manager... or perhaps just doing something fulfilling and fun. But right now I can't.
To the original post: From the point of view of a European person there is nothing very strange at all about wanting to spend some time in Russia. I look forward to the day when there is a Schengen-type agreement between Russia and the EU so people don't have to fuss with visas. It will happen sooner or later.
Better sooner than we die.Quote:
Originally Posted by Johanna