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Thread: The Red Army, and The White Army

  1. #1
    Почтенный гражданин xXHoax's Avatar
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    The Red Army, and The White Army

    My history class just taught us our day of russian history. We've learned about south america, mexico, europe. Never, not once has Russia been mentioned before this. One day. Of Russian history, and that's it. Regardless of how well or how thoroughly they teach this, if it's only for one day, it will be forgotten by the end of the month at best. I don't want that to happen to me. Before now, I had never heard of The White Army. I've heard The Red Army a few times. So what I've gathered from google (not class, that didn't teach anything), The Red army was for communism, and there's still people supporting the idea today, while the White army was for Absolute Monarchy, and was pushed eastward, and crushed into non existence by the Red.(I listened to Всё теперь против нас, it was really sad, as well as White Army, Black Baron) While I see many people fiercely against the Red army, it seems like its "common knowledge" that the White Army was terrible and hated? Their style, the way they dressed seemed...Different than the western Red style. Is the white army still... sustained anywhere, could I go to very eastern Russia and find White army supporters? While on the topic, has there ever been any sort of Capitalist Movement in Russia? I find Russians' constant search for peace and equality beautiful, as I sit here in America, where no such thought is cared about. We live for ourselves with this outer shell of "We care for others".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZqVOFSYRWI
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUhtrz9UtNQ
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GN2JUMrCFe0

  2. #2
    Moderator Lampada's Avatar
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    Белая армия, чёрный барон
    Снова готовят нам царский трон,
    Но от тайги до британских морей
    Красная Армия всех сильней.

    Припев:
    Так пусть же Красная
    Сжимает властно
    Свой штык мозолистой рукой,
    И все должны мы
    Неудержимо
    Идти в последний смертный бой!

    Красная Армия,марш вперёд!
    Реввоенсовет нас в бой зовёт.
    Ведь от тайги до британских морей
    Красная Армия всех сильней!

    Припев

    Мы раздуваем пожар мировой,
    Церкви и тюрьмы сравняем с землёй.
    Ведь от тайги до британских морей
    Красная Армия всех сильней!

    Припев
    Written: 1920
    Lyrics: P. Grigoriev
    Music: Samuil Pokrass



    ____________________________________
    «НОВАЯ ЗАРЯ»


    Припев:
    Как мы сможем победить
    Если нас легко купить
    Как мы сможем побеждать
    Если нас легко продать

    Широка же наша Родина-мать
    Высоко же президент - наш отец
    Можно было б тыщу лет воровать
    Но когда-то наступает...

    Эх, наступает новая заря
    Жить ребята хочется не зря
    Ох, богата наша Родина-мать
    Земли, золото и нефть, наконец

    Можно было б жить и не горевать
    Так откуда ж наступает…
    Эх, наступает новая заря
    Жить ребята хочется не зря

    Припев:
    Как мы сможем победить
    Если нас легко купить
    Как мы сможем побеждать
    Если нас легко продать

    Ох, сильна же наша Родина-мать
    Танки, крейсеры да добрый свинец
    Только кто ж теперь пойдёт воевать
    И опять же наступает…

    Эх, наступает новая заря
    Жить ребята хочется не зря
    Как же сделать так, чтоб всем по нутру,
    Перестали, чтоб делить, наконец,

    Чтоб живым проснуться нам поутру,
    А иначе всем наступит…
    Эх, всем наступит новая заря
    Жить ребята хочется не зря

    Припев:
    Как мы сможем победить
    Если нас легко купить
    Как мы сможем побеждать
    Если нас легко продать

    __________________________________________


    Am Dm E Am
    Все теперь против нас, будто мы креста не носили
    Dm C A7
    Будто аспиды мы бусурманской крови
    Dm E Am
    Даже места нам нет в ошалевшей от боли России
    Dm E Am E Am
    И Господь нас не слышит, зови-не зови

    Вот уж год мы не спим, под мундирами прячем обиды
    Ждем холопскую пулю пониже петлиц
    Вот уж год как Тобольск отзвонил по Царю панихиды
    И предали анафеме души убийц

    Вот уж год как Тобольск отзвонил по Царю панихиды
    И предали анафеме души убийц
    Им не Бог и не Царь, им не Суд и не совесть
    Все им "Тюрьмы долой" да "Пожар до небес"
    И судьба нам читать эту страшную повесть
    В воспаленных глазах матерей и невест

    И судьба нам читать эту страшную повесть
    В воспаленных глазах матерей и невест
    И глядят они долго нам вслед в молчавом укоре
    Как покинутый дом на дорогу из тьмы
    Отступать дальше некуда - дальше Японское море
    Здесь кончается наша Россия и мы
    Отступать дальше некуда - дальше Японское море
    Здесь кончается наша Россия и мы

    В красном Питере кружится, бесится белая вьюга
    Белый иней на стенах московских церквей
    В черном небе ни радости нет, ни испуга
    Только скорбь Божьей Матери по России моей
    В черном небе ни радости нет, ни испуга
    Только скорбь Божьей Матери по России моей

    Песня Юрия Борисова : Юрий Борисов — SouLibre



    "...Важно, чтобы форум оставался местом, объединяющим людей, для которых интересны русский язык и культура. ..." - MasterАdmin (из переписки)



  3. #3
    Завсегдатай maxmixiv's Avatar
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    When millions are eager to exterminate each other, they could not be all white and fluffy.
    They used to describe Civil war's events as "Брат шёл на брата"
    Huge rate of atrocities happened, no doubt.
    As usual, western states ("partners", how Putin calls them now) could not resist to not participate. Otherwise... we would live now in an absolutely different world.
    This might be of interest for you https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Civil_War
    "Невозможно передать смысл иностранной фразы, не разрушив при этом её первоначальную структуру."

  4. #4
    Почтенный гражданин xXHoax's Avatar
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    There is a type pf intellectual thought. A type all but nonexistent in America, a type of empathic intelligence. I've listened to truly intelligent people here, though rare, they do exist here. None of them ever talk of peace, of others. They debate highly controversial topics, but only to the english speaking world. It amazes me that such well rounded people could have such a gaping hole in their intelligence. Some of the smartest, while discussing our broken educational system, say that language classes are largely unneeded. In my mind, the only way we can get to world peace is language. Google translate is not going to ever conduct a trans-lingual conversation on philosophy. America has tremendous problems with the middle east, do any of us speak arabic? No. Very, very few. I think this fact is keeping us against them. Who does the translating for us? The incredibly trustworthy News... Whose very job is to cause trouble for the excitement and views.

  5. #5
    Завсегдатай Crocodile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by xXHoax View Post
    while the White army was for Absolute Monarchy, and was pushed eastward, and crushed into non existence by the Red.
    I might need to refresh my memory, but I think the last stand of the White Army was in Crimea, which is kind of to the south of Moscow and Petrograd. Most battles happened in the southern part of Russian Empire. Only Kolchak's army was in the East.

    As to your first question, I think the White Movement was not purely to restore the Monarchy. Well, there were many monarchists in the White Movement, but there were many who disagreed. Russian monarchy was largely discredited and also the last Russian Monarch signed the abdication, so what was to fight for? To the best of my knowledge, the White Movement was primarily against the bolsheviks which they deemed illegal, so the whites fought for the abstract idea of 'saving Russia' which meant different things to different people. That caused lots of the internal conflicts within the White Movement. That was one of the major reasons they failed. Bolsheviks had a very clear and simple idea - let's get rid of the former oppressors: the officers, the police, the aristocrats, the land owners, the factory owners, and all kind of other owners; and let everybody be equal and free that way. (The common happiness would inevitably follow.) That is why the Red Army had much more personnel and was better motivated.

  6. #6
    Властелин Medved's Avatar
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    That is why the Red Army had much more personnel and was better motivated.
    Another good incentive that motivated the Red Army soldiers against the White Army was the activity of the komissars (officers whose duty was to control and influence what was happening in the brains of the personnel, including direct mechanical stimulation by means of a gun bullet).
    eisenherz likes this.
    Another month ends. All targets met. All systems working. All customers satisfied. All staff eagerly enthusiastic. All pigs fed and ready to fly.

  7. #7
    Завсегдатай Crocodile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medved View Post
    Another good incentive that motivated the Red Army soldiers against the White Army was the activity of the komissars (officers whose duty was to control and influence what was happening in the brains of the personnel, including direct mechanical stimulation by means of a gun bullet).
    I am highly sceptical the White Army officers were any better in that regard. The whites excelled in hanging, for example. All in all, each side committed atrocities beyond imagination.

  8. #8
    Почтенный гражданин xXHoax's Avatar
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    For the record, the main video shown in class: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaK-l0bPyY0
    Judging from a quick look at the comments as well as my thoughts during watching it, it's not exactly unbiased... 'Murica...

  9. #9
    Почтенный гражданин diogen_'s Avatar
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    The comments are biased just as well. Lenin’s ideas are not ordinary run-of-the-mill ideas but omnipotent material forces and lots of people are being possessed by them over there.))

    Идея становится материальной силой, когда она овладевает массами
    Карл Маркс. Идея становится материальной силой, когда она овладевает массами
    xXHoax likes this.

  10. #10
    Почтенный гражданин Suobig's Avatar
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    There's a good poem about The White Army:

    Кладбище под Парижем

    Малая це́рковка. Свечи оплывшие.
    Камень дождями изрыт добела.
    Здесь похоронены бывшие, бывшие.
    Кладбище Сент-Женевьев-де-Буа.

    Здесь похоронены сны и молитвы.
    Слёзы и доблесть. «Прощай!» и «Ура!».
    Штабс-капитаны и гардемарины.
    Хва́ты полковники и юнкера.

    Белая гвардия, белая стая.
    Белое воинство, белая кость…
    Влажные плиты травой порастают.
    Русские буквы. Французский погост…

    Я прикасаюсь ладонью к истории.
    Я прохожу по Гражданской войне…
    Как же хотелось им в Первопрестольную
    Въехать однажды на белом коне!..

    Не было славы. Не стало и Родины.
    Се́рдца не стало. А память — была…
    Ваши сиятельства, их благородия —
    Вместе на Сент-Женевьев-де-Буа.

    Плотно лежат они, вдоволь познавши
    Му́ки свои и дороги свои.
    Всё-таки — русские. Вроде бы — наши.
    Только не наши скорей, а ничьи…

    Как они после — забытые, бывшие
    Всё проклиная и нынче и впредь,
    Рва́лись взглянуть на неё — победившую,
    Пусть непонятную, пусть непростившую,
    Землю родимую, и умереть…

    Полдень. Берёзовый отсвет покоя.
    В небе российские купола.
    И облака, будто белые кони,
    Мчатся над Сент-Женевьев-де-Буа.

    (Р. Рождественский, <1970-е>)
    I know it's "MR" not "ME", but still: fix my english mistakes, please!

  11. #11
    Moderator Lampada's Avatar
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    Русское кладбище под Парижем

    Песня на стихи Роберта Рождественского

  12. #12
    Почтенный гражданин UhOhXplode's Avatar
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    The White Army was everyone that didn't like the Bolsheviks. But don't forget, it wasn't just the Red Army vs the White Army. It was also the Green Army (Ukraine), the Black Army (Ukraine Anarchists), and other factions too. Also 70,000 Japanese troops in the east, the 8,000 troops of the American Expeditionary Force Siberia in Vladivostok, the 5,000 troops of the American North Russia Expeditionary Force in Arkhangelsk, the Canadian Siberian Expeditionary Force in the northwest (troops from Canada, Australia, the UK, and some from India), the Royal Navy Squadron in the Baltics, 2,500 Italian troops, and troops from Romania, Greece, Poland, China, and Serbia. And don't forget, the Czechoslovak Legion that controlled most of the Trans-Siberian railway and all the major cities in Siberia.

    All that was happening while Wrangel was staging offensives around Crimea, General Denikin from the Caucasus, General Yedenich from the northwest, and Admiral Kolchak from the Urals.
    Well, at least the Black Army was useful when it staged offensives against White supply lines while the Red Army defeated Denikin's and Yudenich's armies in October and November, 1919. The Red-Black alliance was also useful in June when the Red Army drove back Kolchak in the east.

    The last major Front was in Crimea where Wrangel and the last of his army was evacuated to Constantinople in November, 1920.
    All that remained after that were minor skirmishes in the east that finally ended in 1934.

    But what caused the divide in the Russian Social Democratic Labor Party was Lenin's views on Marxism. Lenin believed that only full-time, trained and professional Party members could effectively organize the workers. Stalin proved that he believed the same thing when he wrote his Anti-Menshevik Creed in Stockholm in 1906. Well, they were obviously right and it was also very helpful to place Tsarist soldiers in charge of the Red Army troops. By the end of the Civil War, 83% of the Red Army officers were Tsarists.

    Anyway, if you want to learn more about the Revolutions and wars, Google these:

    1. Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov-Lenin.
    2. Iosif Vissarionovich Stalin or Ioseb Besarionis dze Jughashvili - He was Georgian.
    3. The Revolution of 1905.
    4. The February Revolution.
    5. The October Revolution. - Btw, the February and October Revolutions are also called the Russian Revolution.
    6. The Russian Civil War.
    7. World War 1.
    8. The Treaty of Brest-Litovsk.
    9. The Triple Entente Alliance.
    10. The Communist Manifesto.
    11. Leon Trotsky.

    While you're reading about those, you will find tons of other cool side issues to study. Battles, alliances, and economic issues too.
    Anyway, what's important about the White Army is how disorganized it was. Despite getting tons of foreign aid (mostly from fears of the effects of the Brest-Litovsk treaty), there was way too much infighting. That was also true for the Black Army. Sometimes they were fighting the Red Army but sometimes they helped them. But the Green Army was only fighting for Independence that they got in that treaty by promising to provide 1 million tons of food to Germany. It was a complicated war.
    It would also be useful to read the history of Nicholas II and the Russia-Japanese war. Oh, and his German wife that was left to Rule Russia while Nicholas II played Commander-In-Chief on the front lines. She was accused of being a spy.
    Artesh likes this.
    Лучше смерть, чем бесчестие! Тем временем: Вечно молодой, Вечно пьяный. - Смысловые Галлюцинации, Чартова дюжина 2015!
    Пожалуйста, исправьте мои ошибки. Спасибо.

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