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Thread: Mongol Invasion

  1. #1
    крупскяа
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    Mongol Invasion

    What do you think were the effects of the Mongol invasion to the national psyche? How did it affect the political decisions of the succeeding leaders from the past to the present? How did it shape religion? What military tactics and strategies do the Russian army adopt from the Mongols? etc, etc.

    I intend to write a research paper on it to be submitted next semester assuming my professor in history approves of the topic.

  2. #2
    крупскяа
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    Re: Mongol Invasion/Example

    ADVICE FROM THE ARMENIAN COURTIER, HET'UM
    MILITARY AND POLITICAL ALLIES OF THE MONGOLS.

    The Prerequisites for Starting a Battle

    The following four preconditions are required to start a war: first, the
    cause must be just; second, the necessities must be on hand for begin-
    ning and ending war; third, the enemy's condition and strength must be
    understood; fourth, the battle must be commenced at a proper time....

    To a prince making war, the enemy's secrets should not be hidden.
    Things learned in advance can do no harm, though unforseen matters
    sometimes trouble many courageous warriors who, while fighting, have
    no time or room to learn of approaching men and dangers. In all other
    sorts of endeavors if there is some flaw, a remedy may be found- but not
    in warfare. For soon after the pain follows the cost.

  3. #3
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    Re: Mongol Invasion/Example

    Русская википедия:
    Большинство исследователей считают, что итогами монголо-татарского ига для русских земель были разрушения и регресс. В настоящее время большинство историков также подчёркивает, что иго отбросило русские княжества назад в своём развитии и стало главной причиной отставания России от стран Запада. Советские историки отмечали, что иго явилось тормозом для роста производительных сил Руси, находившихся на более высоком социально-экономическом уровне по сравнению с производительными силами монголо-татар, законсервировало на долгое время натуральный характер хозяйства.

    Исследователи отмечают на Руси в период ига упадок строительства из камня и исчезновение сложных ремесел, таких как производство стеклянных украшений, перегородчатой эмали, черни, зерни, полихромной поливной керамики. «Русь была отброшена назад на несколько столетий, и в те века, когда цеховая промышленность Запада переходила к эпохе первоначального накопления, русская ремесленная промышленность должна была вторично проходить часть того исторического пути, который был проделан до Батыя» (Рыбаков Б. А. «Ремесло Древней Руси», 1948, с.525-533; 780—781).

    Однако ещё Карамзин отметил, что татаро-монгольское иго сыграло важнейшую роль в эволюции русской государственности. Помимо этого он также указал на Орду как на очевидную причину возвышения Московского княжества. Вслед за ним Ключевский также полагал, что Орда предотвратила изнурительные, братоубийственные междоусобные войны на Руси. «Монгольское иго при крайней бедственности для русского народа было суровой школой, в которой выковывались Московская государственность и русское самодержавие: школой, в которой русская нация осознавала себя как таковая и приобрела черты характера, облегчавшие ей последующую борьбу за существование». Сторонники идеологии евразийства (Г. В. Вернадский, П. Н. Савицкий и др), не отрицая крайней жестокости монгольского господства, переосмыслили его последствия в позитивном ключе. Они высоко ценили религиозную терпимость монголов, противопоставляя её католической агрессии Запада. Монгольскую империю они рассматривали как геополитическую предшественницу Российской империи. Позднее схожие взгляды, только в более радикальном варианте, развивал Л. Н. Гумилев. По его мнению, упадок Руси начался раньше и был связан с внутренними причинами, а взаимодействие Орды и Руси было выгодным политическим союзом, прежде всего, для Руси. Он считал, что отношения Руси и Орды следует называть «симбиозом».

    English wikipedia:
    The influence of the Mongol invasion on the territories of Kievan Rus' was uneven. Colin McEvedy (Atlas of World Population History, 197 estimates the population of Russia-in-Europe dropped from 7.5 million prior to the invasion to 7 million afterwards. Centers such as Kiev never recovered from the devastation of the initial attack. The Novgorod Republic continued to prosper, however, and new entities, the cities of Moscow and Tver, began to flourish under the Mongols. Although Russian forces defeated the Golden Horde at the Battle of Kulikovo in 1380, Mongol domination of parts of Rus territories, with the requisite demands of tribute, continued until the Great standing on the Ugra river in 1480.

    Certainly, it can be (and often is) argued that without the Mongol destruction of Kievan Rus' that Moscow, and subsequently the Russian Empire, would not have risen. Trade routes with the East came through the Rus lands, making them a center for trade from both worlds. In short, the Mongol influence, while destructive in the extreme to their enemies, had a significant long term effect on the rise of modern Russia, Ukraine and Belarus.

    Historians have debated the long-term influence of Mongol rule on Rus society. The Mongols have been blamed for the destruction of Kievan Rus', the breakup of the ancient Rus nationality into three components, and the introduction of the concept of "oriental despotism" into Russia. But some historians agree that Kievan Rus' was not a homogeneous political, cultural, or ethnic entity and that the Mongols merely accelerated fragmentation that had begun before the invasion. Historians also credit the Mongol regime with an important role in the development of Muscovy as a state. Under Mongol occupation, for example, Muscovy developed its mestnichestvo hierarchy, postal road network, census, fiscal system, and military organization.

    A significant number of historians consider the oppression of Rus' by the Mongols to be the major cause of what is sometimes called "the East-West gap" - approximately 200 years delay in introducing major social, political and economical reforms and scientific innovations in Russia comparing to Western Europe. Specifically, the isolation from the West may have caused Russia's later non-involvement in the Renaissance, the Protestant Reformation, and failure to develop a middle class.

    The period of Mongol rule over Russia included significant cultural and interpersonal contacts between the Russian and Mongolian ruling classes. By 1450, the Tatar language had become fashionable in the court of the Grand Prince of Moscow, Vasily II, who was accused of excessive love of the Tatars and their speech, and many Russian noblemen adopted Tatar surnames (for example, a member of the Veliamanov family adopted the Turkic name "Aksak" and his descendents were the Aksakovs) Many Russian boyar (noble) families traced their descent from the Mongols or Tatars, including Veliaminov-Zernov, Godunov, Arseniev, Bakhmetev,Bulgakov (descendents of Bulgak) and Chaadaev (descendents of Genghis Khan's son Jagatay). In a survey of Russian noble families of the 17th century, over 15% of the Russian noble families had Tatar or Oriental origins.

    In the religious sphere, St. Paphnutius of Borovsk was the grandson of a Mongol baskak, or tax collector, while a nephew of khan Bergai of the Golden Horde converted to Christianity and became known as the monk St. Peter Tsarevich of the Horde

    In the judicial sphere, under Mongol influence capital punishment, which during the times of Kievan Rus had only been applied to slaves, became widespread and the use of torture became a regular part of criminal procedure. Specific punishments introduced in Moscow included beheading for alleged traitors, branding of thieves (with execution for a third arrest). Penal law in western Europe in the Middle Ages was even harsher, however, than Mongol and Russian law.

    The Russian language adopted numerous words from Mongol and Turkish. Such words include dengi (money), kazna (treasury), tamozhnia (customhouse), barysh (profit), and bashmak (shoe).
    Friends, I am ready to assist you in learning the Russian language. And you help me in learning English, please. Who agree - write to me in ICQ or e-mail: shkesper-5@yandex.ru. My skype: a36226. Let's help each other.

  4. #4
    крупскяа
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    Re: Mongol Invasion

    Thanks shkesper! That was very nice of you!

  5. #5
    крупскяа
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    Re: Mongol Invasion

    I don't want the past to haunt you all. But the only worthwhile topic of my research paper that I intend to do is about this subject. Are there any psychologists or psychiatrists in this forum? The reason I am asking is: how would you make a psychological assessment of the minds of the victims of plunder, looting and rape together with those of the women and men of succeeding generations. Spain and Portugal had their own religious crusades but never did rape occur on among his subjects. Britain had no history of pillage, looting and rape of women and children. Was the plunder, looting and rape of hundreds of thousands of German women the result of effect of the depradation caused by the Mongol invasion? Did history affect the psyche of World War II Russian soldiers. Pass on to me some psychiatric or psychological readings together with your comments, please. (Tens of thousands of Filipino rapists are now regretting their acts in Philippine penintiary. So don't get paranoid that I do not mean well).

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    Re: Mongol Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by крупскяа
    Britain had no history of pillage, looting and rape of women and children.
    Quote Originally Posted by крупскяа
    Was the plunder, looting and rape of hundreds of thousands of German women the result of effect of the depradation caused by the Mongol invasion? Did history affect the psyche of World War II Russian soldiers.
    Why do you wrote it?
    Similar reports incite ethnic hatred.
    Why do stories on rape of German women have appeared recently? After decades after 1945.
    Maybe it's has recently invented? Or it's a myth?
    In the history of Britain there are plenty of dark spots.
    But I did not write about it.
    Friends, I am ready to assist you in learning the Russian language. And you help me in learning English, please. Who agree - write to me in ICQ or e-mail: shkesper-5@yandex.ru. My skype: a36226. Let's help each other.

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    Re: Mongol Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by крупскяа
    I don't want the past to haunt you all. But the only worthwhile topic of my research paper that I intend to do is about this subject. Are there any psychologists or psychiatrists in this forum? The reason I am asking is: how would you make a psychological assessment of the minds of the victims of plunder, looting and rape together with those of the women and men of succeeding generations. Spain and Portugal had their own religious crusades but never did rape occur on among his subjects. Britain had no history of pillage, looting and rape of women and children. Was the plunder, looting and rape of hundreds of thousands of German women the result of effect of the depradation caused by the Mongol invasion? Did history affect the psyche of World War II Russian soldiers. Pass on to me some psychiatric or psychological readings together with your comments, please. (Tens of thousands of Filipino rapists are now regretting their acts in Philippine penintiary. So don't get paranoid that I do not mean well).
    I guess this post should win the "most ridiculous and stupid post" award of the year on this forum.
    Please, correct my mistakes, except for the cases I misspell something on purpose!

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    Завсегдатай Crocodile's Avatar
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    Re: Mongol Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by крупскяа
    [...] how would you make a psychological assessment of the minds of the victims of plunder, looting and rape together with those of the women and men of succeeding generations. [...] Are there any psychologists or psychiatrists in this forum?
    Do you mind sharing why you find that topic interesting? Does anything cause you a discomfort?

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    Re: Mongol Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil77
    I guess this post should win the "most ridiculous and stupid post" award of the year on this forum.
    A good candidate indeed.

  10. #10
    крупскяа
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    Re: Mongol Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Crocodile
    Quote Originally Posted by крупскяа
    [...] how would you make a psychological assessment of the minds of the victims of plunder, looting and rape together with those of the women and men of succeeding generations. [...] Are there any psychologists or psychiatrists in this forum?
    Do you mind sharing why you find that topic interesting? Does anything cause you a discomfort?

    They are all factual. They are part of Russian history. It was true. I am going to take a Russian History course this fall. I cannot come up with any topic except this. They cover the field of psychiatry and psychology. Read a book on 'Battered Women'. They are legtimate subject matter. I do not intend to insult anybody but it was history. It happened in the past. Just like talking about how Stalin forcibly raped Krupskaya, wife of Lenin. They are legitimate subject matters.

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    Re: Mongol Invasion

    Я требую убрать мой ник из цитат! Я ничего такого не писал!
    Please, correct my mistakes, except for the cases I misspell something on purpose!

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    Re: Mongol Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by крупскяа
    I cannot come up with any topic except this. [...] Just like talking about how Stalin forcibly raped Krupskaya, wife of Lenin.
    I believe there are the other topics. Something, like: "State Size Gigantomania - Visualization of the Hidden Desires." Or, "Parliamentary Model - The Hereditary Frightened of Not to be Heard. A long way from the Virus to the Modern Politician." Why so much attention to the rape?

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    Re: Mongol Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil77
    Я требую убрать мой ник из цитат! Я ничего такого не писал!
    Покорнейше прошу Вашего прощения. Уже.

  14. #14
    крупскяа
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    Re: Mongol Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Crocodile
    Quote Originally Posted by крупскяа
    I cannot come up with any topic except this. [...] Just like talking about how Stalin forcibly raped Krupskaya, wife of Lenin.
    I believe there are the other topics. Something, like: "State Size Gigantomania - Visualization of the Hidden Desires." Or, "Parliamentary Model - The Hereditary Frightened of Not to be Heard. A long way from the Virus to the Modern Politician." Why so much attention to the rape?
    I have been objective about this topic. It is history. Part and parcel of Russian history. If an author can write a book about Date Rape then anybody can mention 'rape' without putting an emphasis on it or without putting malice in it. I was aiming at the effect on the Russian psyche. The British or Americans as a whole do not condone the rape of its colonial subjects. The Russian soldiers of World War II really committed them. It is history, man. Ok ok I would not talk about it anymore.

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    Re: Mongol Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by крупскяа
    Just like talking about how Stalin forcibly raped Krupskaya, wife of Lenin.


    You've made my day!
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

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    Re: Mongol Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by крупскяа
    It is history, man.
    I'm glad it's history now. Having said that, there are various pieces of history. It's up to the author to pick and choose. Do you mind to share what urged you to make that specific choice?

  17. #17
    крупскяа
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    Re: Mongol Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Crocodile
    Quote Originally Posted by крупскяа
    It is history, man.
    I'm glad it's history now. Having said that, there are various pieces of history. It's up to the author to pick and choose. Do you mind to share what urged you to make that specific choice?
    As I said, I was trying to find out what the Mongol invasion did to the Russian psyche? I am aiming at the psychological effect on the psyche. What made Russian soldiers rape the German women in World War II? Was their acts influenced by the acts of the MOngols when they conquered the religious Slavs? Does historical antecedents cause someone to act impulsively whimsically or capriciously. As I said, Americans, French, Spaniard had conquered so many colonial subjects. Yet, no incidents of rape occurred. What was it that made the Russians of World War II do it on the Germans.

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    Re: Mongol Invasion

    [quote=it-ogo]
    Quote Originally Posted by "крупскяа":2zb5lttu
    Just like talking about how Stalin forcibly raped Krupskaya, wife of Lenin.


    You've made my day![/quote:2zb5lttu]

    Maybe the poor guy watched some porno movie like "Katharina und Ihre Wilden Hengste", but the action takes place in the Soviet Union and took it for a historical documentary?
    Please, correct my mistakes, except for the cases I misspell something on purpose!

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    Re: Mongol Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by крупскяа
    As I said, Americans, French, Spaniard had conquered so many colonial subjects. Yet, no incidents of rape occurred.
    Really? Things like that occur even now. For example I used google and here is the first link:

    https://creativedestruction.wordpres...nd-her-family/

    At the times of WW II:
    According to the contemporary data during the war time at the Pacific USA military justice recorded about 30 rapes per day. From the beginning of 1946 about 330 rapes per day was reported.
    (J. Dower Embracing Defeat: Japan in the Wake of World War II. New York: W. W. Norton, 2000. P. 579.)
    "Россия для русских" - это неправильно. Остальные-то чем лучше?

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    Re: Mongol Invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by крупскяа
    What made Russian soldiers rape the German women in World War II? Was their acts influenced by the acts of the MOngols when they conquered the religious Slavs?
    I guess they were influenced by acts of Nazi army during the previous 5 years. Just a random article from wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crimes ... _Wehrmacht
    As I said, Americans, French, Spaniard had conquered so many colonial subjects.
    Germany wasn't USSR's colonial subject.
    Russian is tough, let’s go shopping!

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