Thread: Cultural observations ... Food

My Grandfather lives for "boo-by-key". Thumb sized peices of bread smotherd in a 50/50 warm honey-oil mixture with either poppy seeds or crushed wallnuts mixed in.

Since we have some Irish food fans here, has anyone heard of or eaten cabbage rolls before? Or were these a Russian dish?

cabbage rolls can be found in russia, poland and other slavic countries. Each reipe is a little different but they are all delicious!

Originally Posted by JB

cabbage rolls can be found in russia, poland and other slavic countries. Each reipe is a little different but they are all delicious!

If I am not mistaken, they are called голубцы in Russian. I do not know whether it is because they have a shade of blue (голубой) when cooked, or they have something to do with pigeons (голуби).

Not blue and made with beef or pork. Serve with sour cream, yummy!

Originally Posted by JB

Not blue and made with beef or pork. Serve with sour cream, yummy!

Yummy indeed. But, I seem to recall they may have this greenish-bluish color sometimes. That apparently depends on the kind of cabbage, the filling and the process.

Originally Posted by bad manners

Originally Posted by JB

Not blue and made with beef or pork. Serve with sour cream, yummy!

Yummy indeed. But, I seem to recall they may have this greenish-bluish color sometimes. That apparently depends on the kind of cabbage, the filling and the process.

Ours usually have a 50/50 meat* and rice filling and are slow cooked in tomato juice (My Grandmother swears by V8 juice. Gives it a spicy flavor).

*Who knew moose meat tasted so good? You haven't lived till you've had a hotdog made from moose.

I guess I havn't lived

Originally Posted by scotcher

I just got back from 3 weeks in a part of Russia with no MacDonalds too (not that I'd eat that filth if my life depended on it anyway). Thought I'd chime in on the thread so far

Go Go Blanket-Generalisation Mode!!

Russian food: varied but pretty bland, though practical. I was enormously glad to get home to my own kitchen and fridge though.

Russian physiques: everyone is pretty thin and fit-looking, apart from every single woman over 35 years old, who are all huge.

Haggis: rocks, end of story.

More later, time permitting.

Where were you scotcher?

And on the physiques: thin, yes. Fit, no. For that, try somewhere like Brazil. (Note I didn't turn off scotcher's blanket generalisation mode..)

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

P.S.
Typical this, innit? First they ask what kind of food Russian people eat, pretending their interest is genuine, then, when they get an opinion which contradicts their preconceived ideas (of borsht and blini s ikroi) in this case, they become stubborn and won't change their opinion no matter what. Sad but true - most people come to Russia to see their stereotypes of Russia and when they fail to see them (because they've been brainwashed all along and these stereotypes are exactly what they are - stereotypes), they return home thinking they've been cheated on their tour cos they didn't see the 'real' Russia, that is the Russia of their stereotypes. I rest my case.

Actually I'm not at all sure what this is typical of...
Who exactly asked what kind of food Russian people eat? I didn't need to ask, I can see perfectly well with my own eyes.
I didn't really come to Russia with many preconceptions of Russian food - I had only vaguely heard of borsch and caviar, and that's it. So I wasn't 'expecting' to see people eat pirozhki and I wasn't blind to the possibility that they might eat hamburgers or pizzas -which of course many people do. But for non-Russians on this forum, I assumed it's more interesting to discuss foods which are distinctively Russian.
Warning: this post may not be even remotely coherent. This is due to the Russian drinking habits that I am rapidly acquiring..

Originally Posted by waxwing

This is due to the Russian drinking habits that I am rapidly acquiring.

DISCLAIMER: Please don't read this post if you're the sensitive type. It contains some very direct and forceful language, reader discretion advised.

waxwing

I'm afraid you won't like what I'm about to say. Also, I'd like you to know that it's with great reluctance that I'm saying this, but it's high time someone said it. Listen, mate, I don't want to be rude but I'm going to ask you to please (pretty please with sugar on) stop making dirty insinuations about the Russian people, especially their 'drinking habits'. If you've landed an accommodation with an alcoholic, well, my condolences, but please don't make sweeping generalizations about the entire people.

Some people do drink, in fact, every country has its drunkards. You see, the drinking habits of those who drink in Russia (and elsewhere in the world) aren't Russian or <insert your favourite nation or ethnic group here>, they are drunkard's drinking habits, simple as that. A wino is a wino in every nation. He isn't Russian, he isn't German, he isn't Chinese. He's a wino, period.

I'm a Russian citizen and I don't know anyone who has a drink problem (though of course there are some who do like everywhere else in the world) and I know a lot of people in Russia, far far more than you do (and I've lived in this country much longer than you have). However, I've seen a lot of foreigners lift the elbow in Russia - apparently they think they're 'going Russian' - I can't but pity such people. What's worse, they love to brag about it before their Russian colleagues and fellow expats. Pardon me, but this is sick. (By the way, this only makes you a laughing stock in the eyes of the Russians.)

It's not my job to police this forum, but I can't just sit quitely while you're badmouthing the Russian people. We don't want to hear odes, critisism is always welcome and incouraged, but lies and slanders will be exposed (2moderator - this will be a clean parliamentary action, forum rules will always be respected).

Now, you may say I'm overreacting, well, I'm not. I'm sick to my gut with your tales of 'Russian drinking habits' and suchlike and I'm sure the others aren't exactly extatic about them either.
Just ignore them, can't you, I hear your hiss. I would, if it wasn't for the people who have never been to Russia and want to find out what the people are like over here - I won't have you brainwash them with lies.

What's his problem, I'm only expressing my opinion, I hear you say. Well, by all means do so, but please do it in the form of IMHO, not in the form of sweeping generalisations and casual remarks which suggest your familiarity with the subject. A casual remark makes people think that what you're saying is common knowledge and happens to be true whereas in reality it may not be the case.

Allah is my witness that I'm not looking for a fight - I want everyone to please stay calm.

waxwing and everyone else who feels like saying something to me in connection with this post, could you possibly email me at 'yazubr STRUDEL yahoo DOT com' (strudel is the @ sign). Thank you.


To everyone else who's Russian on this board - ну а вы все чего притихли? или waxwing действительно прав, вы все спились к чертям собачьим? вам не обидно, когда такую гнусь тут про вас пишут? ведь это нас всех касается. нет, вы тут все умиляетесь, как круто, типа англичанина бухать научили, молодца паря! вам ведь в лицо плюют. тьфу противно. знаете, есть такое слово быдло? так вот быдло есть везде, с этим ничего не поделаешь. но никакой народ по своей природе не быдло, но почему-то из жителей России это быдло с радостью пытаются сделать, и обидно то, что наши люди при этом стоят и улыбаются как олигофрены. Что конкретно лично сам отдельно взятый waxwing думает о России меня мало волнует, но я считаю неправильным, когда он свои мысли на этом форуме высказывает не в ключе ИМХО, а в ключе общепризнанных и неподлежащих оспариванию фактов. Причем это может быть завуалированно во вроде бы безобидные фразы, брошенные мимоходом, но своей клеветнической сути они не теряют при этом (например, вот этот эпитет "This is due to the Russian drinking habits that I am rapidly acquiring").

Я не русофил и од в свой адрес не жду. Критику приветствую, но против лжи буду бороться нещадно (для модератора - парламентскими методами согласно регламенту данного форума). Аллах видит я не лезу в драку и призываю всех соблюдать спокойствие. Наболело просто...

Originally Posted by waxwing

This is due to the Russian drinking habits that I am rapidly acquiring..

Ok, if u wanna talk about "drinking habits" let's see statistics of the World Health Organization

Adult per capita alcohol consumption of pure alcohol in litres (2000):
Czech Republic - 14.94 litres
Denmark - 11.30 litres (1999)
Finland - 9.72 litres(1999)
France - 13.31 litres
Germany - 12.45 litres
Italy - 9.16 litres
Ireland - 15.80 litres (1999)
Latvia - 9.54 litres
Netherlands - 9.45 litres
Slovakia -12.11 litres (1999)
Spain - 11.17 litres
Switzerland - 11.45 litres (1999)
UK - 9.73 litres (1999)
US - 9.08 litres
Russia - 10.70 litres
Don't see to much CNN propaganda and don't be so brainwashed!
Nothing personal, "Мне за державу обидно!" (©"Белое солнце пустыни")

Well I was going to apologise for my comment about drinking. Then I read your post again VM and I remembered why I responded to you in the first place. Frankly, you're a bully. Your pretence of being 'offended' by my comment is just a front.

You know, English people have a bad reputation, not for drinking so much, but for drinking and being violent (football hooligans etc.). If people make jokes about that with me, I just laugh, perhaps ruefully. Does one really need to be so touchy about this? Of course not. There will always be cliches and reality is of course never quite like that.

But I've lost count of the number of times Russian people here have told *me* that drinking is a big problem in Russia. Once again, you assume it's my preconceptions but I don't get my ideas about Russian food or drink from CNN or the BBC, I get it from living here.

As for statistics, well, that's certainly interesting. But I remember many times, while living in England, discussing the difference between French and English drinking habits .. the French don't have a reputation for being drunkards, although they drink a lot, it's because of the way they drink - more with food, and over a longer time.
It's not just about how much you drink, but the way you drink it.

Originally Posted by waxwing

You know, English people have a bad reputation, not for drinking so much, but for drinking and being violent (football hooligans etc.).

We've got a diffrent view on the same things - England and English people never assosiate with violent people in Russia, such as many another countries don't assosiate with negative. Russians associate England with the Big Ban and Tower, Thems etc, I guess that 9 of 10 russians mostly assosiate English people with Shakespeare, Robin the Hood, Walter Scott, Robert Burns and The Beatles and Backham... But on the contrary western people usually assosiate Russia with negative.
I think it could be a good theme for a new topic, "what do the russians assosiate with your country?"

But I've lost count of the number of times Russian people here have told *me* that drinking is a big problem in Russia.

Sure it is.And this is a big problem for all countries where the drinking of alcohol is more than 8-9 litres per capita. I wonder why the people in the other countries don't discuss about this with forieners. May be russians more open or more truthful?

Once again, you assume it's my preconceptions but I don't get my ideas about Russian food or drink from CNN or the BBC, I get it from living here.

So what? You are the 1 of 10000 forieners who knows the russian reality in only one region. The other people look, read and listen to the western "free" mass-media and they find there "drunk white bears with balalayka and AK47 walking down the Red Square". Мне за державу обидно!

As for statistics, well, that's certainly interesting. But I remember many times, while living in England, discussing the difference between French and English drinking habits .. the French don't have a reputation for being drunkards, although they drink a lot, it's because of the way they drink - more with food, and over a longer time.
It's not just about how much you drink, but the way you drink it.

I think it also depends on the laws. Russia has not very stringent laws about drinking in public places, for example.

Originally Posted by JJ

Originally Posted by waxwing

You know, English people have a bad reputation, not for drinking so much, but for drinking and being violent (football hooligans etc.).

We've got a diffrent view on the same things - England and English people never assosiate with violent people in Russia, such as many another countries don't assosiate with negative. Russians associate England with the Big Ban and Tower, Thems etc, I guess that 9 of 10 russians mostly assosiate English people with Shakespeare, Robin the Hood, Walter Scott, Robert Burns and The Beatles and Backham... But on the contrary western people usually assosiate Russia with negative.
I think it could be a good theme for a new topic, "what do the russians assosiate with your country?"

Agreed. There is no doubt that there is a negative association with Russia for most Westerners. It's rather vague, full of cliches and yes, it's perpetuated by the media. They think of mafia, drunkenness, poverty, corruption etc. Not to mention cold of course.
I can understand that this must be, sometimes, very annoying for Russians.

Originally Posted by JJ

Originally Posted by waxwing

But I've lost count of the number of times Russian people here have told *me* that drinking is a big problem in Russia.

Sure it is.And this is a big problem for all countries where the drinking of alcohol is more than 8-9 litres per capita. I wonder why the people in the other countries don't discuss about this with forieners. May be russians more open or more truthful?

You might be right. But, perhaps I should just explain what I really meant by 'Russian drinking habits'. It wasn't 'drinking a lot' - but rather the drinking of vodka, neat, in large measures. This is really unusual to most westerners and it takes some getting used to. Russians often tell me it's 'opasniy' .. and how right they are!

Originally Posted by JJ

Originally Posted by waxwing

Once again, you assume it's my preconceptions but I don't get my ideas about Russian food or drink from CNN or the BBC, I get it from living here.

So what? You are the 1 of 10000 forieners who knows the russian reality in only one region. The other people look, read and listen to the western "free" mass-media and they find there "drunk white bears with balalayka and AK47 walking down the Red Square". Мне за державу обидно!

Yeah I understand the 'media' problem (see above).

Originally Posted by waxwing

Where were you scotcher?

And on the physiques: thin, yes. Fit, no. For that, try somewhere like Brazil. (Note I didn't turn off scotcher's blanket generalisation mode..)

Ivanovo mostly, where my in-laws live, but we also spent time in Yaroslavl and Vladimir, and spent New Year in a pretty wee village called Palex.

@vendingmachine: I've been to Russia a few times, my wife is Russian, and I have to say it seems to me that you are describing Russia as you would like it to be, rather than how it really is.

Of course not all Russians match the stereotype, but neither is the stereotype completely inaccurate. Indeed, in my experience the greatest proponents of the steroetype are Russians themselves, rather than any nasty lying foreigners. They love the stereotype, they are proud of it, and they love to play up to it, especially whenever there are foreigners present, and that seems to be the case even if they themselves are not particularly heavy drinkers.

In my, admittely limited, experience a great many Russian men do indeed drink only in moderation, and the vast majority of Russian women drink less than would be considered average in Britain, but there are a whole load of Russian men who drink so much that I am amazed they even stay alive let alone hold down jobs and provide for their families, as they do. And remember that I am speaking as a Scot, another nation with a reputation for producing heavy boozers, who grew up in a pub (my parents co-owned a pub, and we lived above it), so I reckon I'm pretty comfortable with the issues here.

But, like I said, if you want to blame anyone for the steroetye (as if it'll make any difference anyway), then blame the millions of Russians who come into contact with foreigners in some capacity and do their best to prove it, every... single... time.

Last night, a man was sick on my shoes in the metro. You can keep your WHO statistics - I have all the evidence I need .

Originally Posted by joysof

Last night, a man was sick on my shoes in the metro. You can keep your WHO statistics - I have all the evidence I need .

So what? A man puked all over my mate's back on the London underground. Does this make all Brits winoes?

Originally Posted by joysof

Last night, a man was sick on my shoes in the metro. You can keep your WHO statistics - I have all the evidence I need .

Anecdotal evidence again, joysof?

I may disagree with VendingMachine on many things, but this is one thing where I concur. Essentially everything the Westerners "know" about the Russians is stereotypes dating back to the 18-19th centuries, which were fabricated by the propaganda of the Western states. For one only reason: Russia was becoming a major player in Europe so the rulers had to make sure the lemmings would hate the Russians organically.

Even the "cold" thing was made up as an excuse by the French losers, for their mass desertions and shameful defeat. Which of course was just the thing for the German losers a century later.

Originally Posted by scotcher

In my, admittely limited, experience a great many Russian men do indeed drink only in moderation, and the vast majority of Russian women drink less than would be considered average in Britain....

That's right, waxwing this is one of the drinking habits - the women shouldn't drink too much. In my family women drink about 3-4 times less than men. BTW, my wife never drink.

Well, Scotcher, maybe this is a regional thing again. Coming from St Petersburg, I'd hate to sound like a metropolitan snob, but those places, Yaroslavl, Vladimir, Palex, ahummm, well, they're our "Roossian Doodloy". I mean, what do you expect? You choose the most bumpkin of all places and expect everyone to be nayce and refayned.

Please don't get me wrong, Scotcher, I don't want to say anything bad about the people who live there, I know some very very nice people from there, were at Uni together, but the region has a reputation for its economic depression with all due consequences.

But what about Britain? Well, I've been to Liverpool and Manchester a few times (and many more places in Britain too). We've had our car broken into twice within a week (!), every day we could watch gangs of scallies kick 7 shades of sh@te out of each other and whoever happend to be passing by, I've been thrown all sorts of rubbish at while riding a bike... In London my mate got puked all over by some ...-up Cockney tosser. In Cambridge local yobs were accosting foreign students every night at chucking out time. Speaking of chucking out time - it was almost impossible to walk around the centre of Cambridge at that time because there were drunks strewn all over the place, puking, shouting, swearing, singing, urinating - the police were working like an army of paramedics at the scene of a major car crash picking them up and taking them down to the police station. And cor, did bicycles get stolen!

So what does this say about the British? Are they drunks and hooligans? Are they thieving bastards? Absolutely not. So why is it OK for some of your people to display such clearly antisocial behaviour, drink like there was no tomorrow, and still avoid bringing the national character of the British into question by us? Maybe because we can see the broader picture? Maybe it's because we don't jump to conclusion having seen a few examples which mean basically nothing.

[personal comment to Scotcher deleted by moderator]

Originally Posted by Scotcher

Of course not all Russians match the stereotype, but neither is the stereotype completely inaccurate.

Stereotypes can never be inaquarate. There will always be someone who matches it.

[edited by moderator]

Originally Posted by Scotcher

They love the stereotype, they are proud of it, and they love to play up to it, especially whenever there are foreigners present, and that seems to be the case even if they themselves are not particularly heavy drinkers.

Ha-ha-ha, how little you know about the Russian character yet. What better fun than to pull the leg of an unsuspecting foreigner full of silly stereotypes about you? That reminds me of how we once told an American tourist that we'd better sprint to the nearest metro station because out of the corner of my eye I had just seen a pack of bears walking along a side street in our general direction. Cor, did the poor berk run! He must've broken the world record, LOL. We laughed heartily, we did. Serves him right for believing silly propaganda. OK, that was fairly juvinile, I accept, but we were just kids at the time...

Nobody loves this stereotype, I'm convinced that one must be severly disturbed if one believes this could be the case. What you're saying is that we, the Russian people, love it when foreigners say we drink like pigs, which in effect is the same as saying "yes, you're all pigs out there" because only a pig would be proud of it. So what you have just done is insult everyone Russian on this forum. Now, Internet is a great thing, it allows one to be rude to whoever one wishes without getting into serious trouble.

As for playing up to the drinking stereotype, I'm inclined to disagree with you. Either you're bending the truth or what you've seen in Ivanovo is typical of Ivanovo and the depressed area around it and can be linked to the poor economic situation the people are in there. In St Petersburg drinking is a very non-U thing. Those who drink don't usually brag about it, it's a very non-U thing here, bragging about your drinking. If you drink, it's something you are expected to be ashamed of. (This doesn't apply to many teenage boys trying to look macho, but anyway it is a passing phase for most of them.) If a foreigner asks someone if drinking is a big problem here, most Russians would switch to sarcastic mode because they're sick and tired of this question (likewise of questions like what do you think of Stalin? are you a communist?) and because they think (and unfortunately not without a good reason) that the foreigner already has a preconceived idea about everything in Russia and he's only after more proof of his theories, and being sick to his gut of explaining everything to someone who obviously doesn't want to change his opinion, so why bother, why disspell the myth, why enlighten the ungrateful one? You want to see Russians as drunkards, fine, fine, put on your beer-goggles and halucinate. At the end of the day it's that foreigner who keeps his stereotypes and is made a laughing stock out of behind his back.

Originally Posted by Scotcher

@vendingmachine: , and I have to say it seems to me that you are describing Russia as you would like it to be, rather than how it really is.

So far I haven't described Russia as I would like it to be, I'm not Solzhinitsin. Anyway, it'd be pearls before, you know.