Thread: Царь vs. Император (Czar vs. Emperor)

Has anybody thought of the difference between the words "царь" and "император"? Also, how are the translations "czar" and "emperor" different?

Царь was made of цезарь. The word zsar is a Slavic alternative for Emperor.

Before it's use for the ruler of Russia, wasn't Tsar' used in the Bible?

Emperor, I believe is something adopted by Peter I. I think Ivan Grozny was the first Tsar. In any case, the difference it seems to me is that a)it's a more powerful title and b)it may have sounded more western, and thus better, to Peter. It was under his reign that Russia really became a power-house and started to expand into areas that were previously held by major powers (Sweden and Turkey), so this came naturally as Russian became "imperial." Also, I think Tsar was used by "russified" people for the name of their rulers -- there were Tatar tsars for example, so clearly, it elevates the Russian tsar aboe that. And finally, keep in mind that people liked titles. A lot. I remember reading in Ivan Grozny's biography that he got in some big dispute with a Eastern European country -- he rufused to acknowledge them by the title they wanted, since they were supposed to be the "little brother of the Tsar" and not his equal. Likewise, he had to do a good bit of politicking to be awarded the title of "Tsar" in the first place, negotiating with the Church abroad.

Originally Posted by TATY

Before it's use for the ruler of Russia, wasn't Tsar' used in the Bible?

Really? I'd never heard that before...

in the Bible was Ceasar - Кesar' (Кесарь) in the Slavic Ortodoxal texts. Then the word Ceasar was transformed in Tsar.
Untill the last days of Russian Monarchy the Tsar's son was called цесаревич (cesarevich and царевич as a short form)- a patronim of цезарь.

царь and император must be two different words, because Peter I was called "Царь и император Всея Руси". These are both titles but there seems to be a difference.

I think it's embellishment. 'Czar' is a culturally specific phenomenon to be associated with Russia. A czar rules as an emperor rules. But 'emperor' has a mite different feature of ruling over large territories.

Originally Posted by MasterAdmin

царь and император must be two different words, because Peter I was called "Царь и император Всея Руси". These are both titles but there seems to be a difference.

Well, the Tsars had a massive, long-arsed title -- it was many, many titles actually, rolled into one. Rtyem's right; it's just an embellishment. Why be JUST a tsar when you could be an emperor, too? There, is in practice, no REAL power bestowed simply by holding the title -- it just sounds cool. Seriously, you should understand this MasterAdmin. Why just be administrator, when you could become "MasterAdmin, Administrator and All-Powerful Moderator of the MR forums." Go, go, Gadget Ego!

Originally Posted by MasterAdmin

Has anybody thought of the difference between the words "царь" and "император"? Also, how are the translations "czar" and "emperor" different?

www.gramota.ru

Originally Posted by Dimitri

www.gramota.ru

nah... google.com :P

Originally Posted by Barmaley

There, is in practice, no REAL power bestowed simply by holding the title -- it just sounds cool. Seriously, you should understand this MasterAdmin. Why just be administrator, when you could become "MasterAdmin, Administrator and All-Powerful Moderator of the MR forums." Go, go, Gadget Ego!

I bet there is REAL power bestowed simply by holding MasterAdmin title Why would I want to downgrade to some All-Powerful Moderator... however powerful that could be?

Originally Posted by MasterAdmin

Originally Posted by Dimitri

www.gramota.ru

nah... google.com :P

Originally Posted by Barmaley

There, is in practice, no REAL power bestowed simply by holding the title -- it just sounds cool. Seriously, you should understand this MasterAdmin. Why just be administrator, when you could become "MasterAdmin, Administrator and All-Powerful Moderator of the MR forums." Go, go, Gadget Ego!

I bet there is REAL power bestowed simply by holding MasterAdmin title Why would I want to downgrade to some All-Powerful Moderator... however powerful that could be?

No. It's all in your head. I control MR; you are simply my pawn! Bwahahaha.

Originally Posted by Barmaley

No. It's all in your head. I control MR; you are simply my pawn! Bwahahaha.

That's a good presupposition to have in my head then. I don't complain

Barmaley has basically explained it. The title of император was introduced by Peter the Great to replace царь, as a grander title and probably also because it is more obviously Latin/Western in origin.

The way the titles worked was that император had a higher standing than царь, as the full title of the Russian emperors declared them to be цаpи of a lot of places.

The full title of the Russian emperors starts with 'Божію Поспѣшествующею Милостію Мы, Николай Вторый Императоръ и Самодержецъ Всероссiйскiй Московский, Кіевскій, Владимірскій, Новгородскій,' (using pre-reform spelling)

and then proceeds to list:

Царь Казанскій, Царь Астраханскій, Царь Польскій, Царь Сибирскій, Царь Херсониса Таврическаго, Царь Грузинскій ...and onwards.

This usage of Царь is similar to how Carolus/King was used in other parts of Europe, as an extremely powerful title but still subordinate to Imperator/Emperor.

In actual practice though, Царь and Император were used interchangeably, but that kind of usage wasn't really correct.

Edit: I'll also add that Царь was used as a title for various figures in the Old Church Slavic Bible. The political usage stems from the Byzantine Empire though. The Slavs referred to the emperor in Constantinople as Царь and even called the city Цариград (the Bulgarian and Serbian usage which continues to this day, although only occassionally). When the Grand Dukes of Moscow married into the Palaeologus family, they started to adopt the title for themselves. Not officially until Ivan IV though.