Thread: Skinheads

Originally Posted by Pravit

VendingMachine certainly wouldn't make me pay any "extra fines" if I was walking around St. Petersburg, right?

I'm here right now, no extra fines so far.

I suppose it could be worse, at least I don't look like someone from the Caucusus...kind of sucks that this has to be a concern though.

I really doubt this is a valid concern. Yesterday, I was walking around with a friend of mine, and he has this habit of drinking beer while having a walk after a tiresome working day. So we go in the nearest ларёк, to buy some beer for him, and we see there a couple of skinhead-looking guys, then a Caucasian-looking guy with a Russian-looking bird come in. You'd expect the skinheads to get a heart attack upon seeing that nauseating picture, yet they did not seem to care. Nor did the guy display any kind of concern. Then I saw this Кавказ bar (or restaurant) by the corner of Итальянская и Караванная (very centrally located, for those who do not know) -- and I could not see any traces of fires or thrashing that such an enterprise should have given what we're being told about "Russian nationalism". I know this is all anecdotal evidence, but the opposite is anecdotal evidence, too.

[quote:mhz7zr1e]I suppose it could be worse, at least I don't look like someone from the Caucusus...kind of sucks that this has to be a concern though.

I really doubt this is a valid concern. Yesterday, I was walking around with a friend of mine, and he has this habit of drinking beer while having a walk after a tiresome working day. So we go in the nearest ларёк, to buy some beer for him, and we see there a couple of skinhead-looking guys, then a Caucasian-looking guy with a Russian-looking bird come in. You'd expect the skinheads to get a heart attack upon seeing that nauseating picture, yet they did not seem to care. Nor did the guy display any kind of concern. Then I saw this Кавказ bar (or restaurant) by the corner of Итальянская и Караванная (very centrally located, for those who do not know) -- and I could not see any traces of fires or thrashing that such an enterprise should have given what we're being told about "Russian nationalism". I know this is all anecdotal evidence, but the opposite is anecdotal evidence, too.[/quote:mhz7zr1e]
Yeah, you're probably right, there's nothing much to worry about. I'm probably more likely to be mugged than harassed by skinheads...

bad manners, cops will know your documents are in order, they know everything's fine, the reality of the situation is that if they really want money, and they have your passport in their hands, how are you going to get it back. You cant just snatch it up and walk away. NOw that being said, just because you havent had it happen to you, doesnt mean that it doesnt happen. I had it happen once, simply for walknig out of a train station, and a cop felt like trying to get some money from me. Now if talking to him for 45 minutes isnt enough of saying my documents are fine, i dont know what is. In another situation, a cop just wanted to talk to me and ask why i wasnt registered in a given city, but i explained to him that i was just passing through and wasnt staying for longer than three days....not much of a problem.

Spending 6 months in petersburg, I never walked around with my passport, and maybe sometimes with a spravka, but most of the time, i felt fine walking around with a student bilet or nothing at all. But in moscow, its more necessary to walk around with your passport because they are more concerned over security, Moscow is a bigger target since its a political center and has had a few bombings and incidents over the last few years.

Young males, Russian or foreign, seem to be popular targets for the police. Especially after dark. I've never seen girls or women get stopped. Except when they are young and cute and then the cops are more friendly than threatening.

Originally Posted by drew881

bad manners, cops will know your documents are in order, they know everything's fine

If everybody knows everything is fine, then just wait till they have enough of your polite resistance, and be on your way. I realize that the cops try to present the case as if they will never let you go, but they do in fact care a lot more about their wasted time than you do about yours.

But if you just shell out some dough, you create a positive feedback loop. Think about that. I'm not siding with the cops here, I know many of them are swine, I'm saying that this submission does not pay back.

In another situation, a cop just wanted to talk to me and ask why i wasnt registered in a given city, but i explained to him that i was just passing through and wasnt staying for longer than three days....not much of a problem.

See? If you behave like a person who knows his rights, they cannot do anything to you.

Spending 6 months in petersburg, I never walked around with my passport, and maybe sometimes with a spravka, but most of the time, i felt fine walking around with a student bilet or nothing at all.

You're violating the law by doing so. Foreigners must be in possession of valid travel documents at all times.

[quote=bad manners]

Originally Posted by "Линдзи":1qnywtxv

And, of course, when the police stop you in the street and find that "your documents aren't in order," that requires some, ahem, "paying of fines."

Ever tried to be stubborn asking "что же именно не в порядке? Да, я с удовольствием проследую в отделение, где с удовольствем подпишу протокол"? Of course that does not work when your papers are really not in order, but you sounded as if they were in order.[/quote:1qnywtxv]

Some French citizens were beaten up quite badly in a St. Petersburg police station a year or two ago. Regardless of the fact if their docus were in order or not, that's just a criminal offense.

[quote=Gollandski Yozh][quote="bad manners":1j66acb7]

Originally Posted by "Линдзи":1j66acb7

And, of course, when the police stop you in the street and find that "your documents aren't in order," that requires some, ahem, "paying of fines."

Ever tried to be stubborn asking "что же именно не в порядке? Да, я с удовольствием проследую в отделение, где с удовольствем подпишу протокол"? Of course that does not work when your papers are really not in order, but you sounded as if they were in order.[/quote:1j66acb7]

Some French citizens were beaten up quite badly in a St. Petersburg police station a year or two ago. Regardless of the fact if their docus were in order or not, that's just a criminal offense.[/quote:1j66acb7]Oh? Cops aren't alowed to protect themselves against drunken pricks who lash out at them with sharpened screw drivers and knuckledusters? The punks had been gagging for it and got their just desserts and the law-abiding citizens said thank you our dear militsia for taking such scum off our streets.

Take your rose-coloured spectacles off, guys, beatings at police stations take place in all countries - I know folks who have been subjected to brutal beatings at copshops in Madrid, London, Newcastle, Copenhagen, Oslo...this is an open list. Bent coppers and sadists in police uniform exist everywhere.

As bad manners said, why don't you guys try putting your foot down for once? As for bribes at hostels, this is even more rediculous. You people are so naive and gullible... When I was a student I'd go to halls to shag girls and all and I'd often hear the security man shout "с тебя конъяк!" - do you seriously think I ever gave him anything? You see, many of the things you think people say in earnest is really said in jest even with a poker face - I don't know, perhaps you have to be Russian to understand it, it could be that just knowing the language is really not enough, but this is how it is, all this bribe extortion talk is pure bollocks. I'm dead serious folks, this is how it really is - but being a foreigner you misinterpret it and as bad manners rightly pointed out create a positive feedback loop. To put this bluntly, blame yourselves for paying bribes - no one's asking you too, just be firm and ignore this 'bribe talk' - in 99.9% of cases it's nothing but a somewhat surreal kind of humour.

P.S. Of course they shouldn't use this type of banter on you but for some reason they all assume that you will understand, I suppose it's the same thing as with them thinking that you would understand Russian if they just spoke louder, but that deserves another topic....

Yeah of course, absolutely, there's no bribery, corruption or extorsion of any kind in Russia other than that reported by foreigners who don't realise it's all just a joke.

Yep, uhuh, definately.

So VM, does that mean all my Russian friends are going to get their money back? Let's see, they look Russian, speak the native language fluently, and live in Moscow. So I guess paying bribes is just a figment of their immagination .

[quote=VendingMachine][quote=Gollandski Yozh]

Originally Posted by "bad manners":37f0djuo

Originally Posted by "Линдзи":37f0djuo

And, of course, when the police stop you in the street and find that "your documents aren't in order," that requires some, ahem, "paying of fines."

Ever tried to be stubborn asking "что же именно не в порядке? Да, я с удовольствием проследую в отделение, где с удовольствем подпишу протокол"? Of course that does not work when your papers are really not in order, but you sounded as if they were in order.

Some French citizens were beaten up quite badly in a St. Petersburg police station a year or two ago. Regardless of the fact if their docus were in order or not, that's just a criminal offense.[/quote:37f0djuo]Oh? Cops aren't alowed to protect themselves against drunken pricks who lash out at them with sharpened screw drivers and knuckledusters? The punks had been gagging for it and got their just desserts and the law-abiding citizens said thank you our dear militsia for taking such scum off our streets.[/quote:37f0djuo]



These were French emplyees of a French company in St. Pete. Just going about their business, NOT being drunk, NOT armed with screw drivers.

Besides, there is a BIG difference between protecting yourself and beating someone to a pulp.

Originally Posted by JB

So VM, does that mean all my Russian friends are going to get their money back? Let's see, they look Russian, speak the native language fluently, and live in Moscow. So I guess paying bribes is just a figment of their immagination .

No, no, look, you didn't understand. Unfortunately some of my fellow countrymen are not very clever people and they think that paying bribes is the only way to get things done. As bad manners said in one of his posts this creates a positive feedback loop - don't offer bribes, ignore the bastards. Believe me, you don't have to pay bribes to get things done - 99.9% of those who do would pay them everywhere and all the time and in all countries. More often then not they offer bribes themselves. It's in their blood as well as their heads - I would say the problem in this country is not with the extortion of bribes but with this stupid culture of paying bribes. I know this sounds rediculous, but this is how it really is, believe me, I have more insight into this having dealt with some 'extortion cases' professionally.
By the way, what kind of bribes did they pay? Under what circumstances? How much?

@Scotcher - don't be such a pompous ass, of course Russia, like any country in the world, has its share of people who extort bribes, we also have other scum such as serial killers, rapists, terrorists. Big smegging deal. This whole planet reeks of crime. And as a tourist you're more vulnerable. When a cabbie shortchanges me in London and then a girl behind a check-in counter at Stansted Airport tries to make me pay for my luggage cos it's 'overweight' althgough I have a special document from the BA's boss which alows me to carry 20 kilos more than what is normally alowed because I'm carrying stuff for an official deligation and it's being paid for by a third party, how should I react? What should I say? I don't say anything, I know that scum is omnipresent - doesn't matter where on this planet you are, scum will always get you in the end.

Originally Posted by Gollandski Yozh

These were French emplyees of a French company in St. Pete.

Indeedy. A French employee can never be drunk. By definition, I should guess. A reality check: even seen the F-Men when they're outta their daily "ampluamoh"?

Just going about their business, NOT being drunk, NOT armed with screw drivers.

According to the employees, I'm guessing agaian. I'm also guessing that the cops may be saying something entirely different. But whom should the bright Йож trust? You bet, never the Russian cops.

Besides, there is a BIG difference between protecting yourself and beating someone to a pulp.

Wait till somebody pokes you in your belly or your eye with a screwdriver, then tell us what you did to the guy.

[quote=Gollandski Yozh][quote=VendingMachine][quote="Gollandski Yozh":1446d509]

Originally Posted by "bad manners":1446d509

Originally Posted by "Линдзи":1446d509

And, of course, when the police stop you in the street and find that "your documents aren't in order," that requires some, ahem, "paying of fines."

Ever tried to be stubborn asking "что же именно не в порядке? Да, я с удовольствием проследую в отделение, где с удовольствем подпишу протокол"? Of course that does not work when your papers are really not in order, but you sounded as if they were in order.

Some French citizens were beaten up quite badly in a St. Petersburg police station a year or two ago. Regardless of the fact if their docus were in order or not, that's just a criminal offense.[/quote:1446d509]Oh? Cops aren't alowed to protect themselves against drunken pricks who lash out at them with sharpened screw drivers and knuckledusters? The punks had been gagging for it and got their just desserts and the law-abiding citizens said thank you our dear militsia for taking such scum off our streets.[/quote:1446d509]



These were French emplyees of a French company in St. Pete. Just going about their business, NOT being drunk, NOT armed with screw drivers.

Besides, there is a BIG difference between protecting yourself and beating someone to a pulp.[/quote:1446d509]I'm afraid you were misinformed. Yes they were imployes of a French company and this business they were going about was a criminal one and connected with drugs and child pornography. Please, Yozh, you'll only make a fool of yourself - I know this case like the back of my hand - I was once on the force, you know.

Originally Posted by bad manners

Just going about their business, NOT being drunk, NOT armed with screw drivers.

According to the employees, I'm guessing agaian. I'm also guessing that the cops may be saying something entirely different. But whom should the bright Йож trust? You bet, never the Russian cops.

WTF are you talking about? It never happens, you're telling me? It happens in the US, why not in Russia? Where did you read it never happens in the Netherlands or something? I never said that.

This is a really stupid way of reasoning. "He is bad." "Well, you are too!" Does that make the first person any less bad?!?

[quote:15droqi5]Besides, there is a BIG difference between protecting yourself and beating someone to a pulp.

Wait till somebody pokes you in your belly or your eye with a screwdriver, then tell us what you did to the guy.[/quote:15droqi5]

A policeman, more than any other, has to follow the law. If the law doesn't give him the right to kick someone's teeth in, he can't do that. Defending oneself and disarming an attacker is not the same as taking revenge afterwards. In a civilised nation, the judge punishes, not the police.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

I'm afraid you were misinformed. Yes they were imployes of a French company and this business they were going about was a criminal one and connected with drugs and child pornography. Please, Yozh, you'll only make a fool of yourself - I know this case like the back of my hand - I was once on the force, you know.

Connected with drugs and child pornography? So what (even if it's true)? They were suspects. The police arrests people. The judge punishes them. And corporal punishment is not a possibility under Russian law, so...

Originally Posted by Gollandski Yozh

WTF are you talking about? It never happens, you're telling me? It happens in the US, why not in Russia? Where did you read it never happens in the Netherlands or something? I never said that.

Where was I saying "it never happens"? I said that your representation of the case was ridiculous. What the hell does it have to do with their being French or whatever? If you had said "the Russian cops do nasty things to innocent people" without specifying their nationality, you knew you would have been asked for a proof. But mix in their Frenchness, and presto, that should somehow eliminate "gimme the proof" phrase. Why? What do you know about the case except what is told by the "innocent victims" themselves? You know, my friend, it always goes that way with criminals: they are ever so ready to claim their innocence and abuse of power by authorities.

And, after all, if that happens in every country as you seem to be implying now, then why mention it at all, as if it were something Russian specific? The Russians like abusing the French? You should move outta Holland, then, since apparently that cannabis smoke all around you is degrading your intelligence.

A policeman, more than any other, has to follow the law. If the law doesn't give him the right to kick someone's teeth in, he can't do that. Defending oneself and disarming an attacker is not the same as taking revenge afterwards. In a civilised nation, the judge punishes, not the police.

Oh puhleeze. I know that in Holland a policeman is a like a baby unable to do much against the criminals he's after, but that is only in Holland, so "Holland" does not equal "a civilised nation". You should actually have a look once at how the French police deals with the criminals -- oh wait, it might too much for you.

Originally Posted by bad manners

You should move outta Holland, then, since apparently that cannabis smoke all around you is degrading your intelligence.

Oh puhleeze. I know that in Holland a policeman is a like a baby unable to do much against the criminals he's after, but that is only in Holland, so "Holland" does not equal "a civilised nation". You should actually have a look once at how the French police deals with the criminals -- oh wait, it might too much for you.

Is it really that difficult for you to discuss about a subject without these childish "the Netherlands are a nation constantly high on weet" stuff...

If you have something intelligent to say, I'll react. This post, however, is too far out of my way. I'd have to go down all the way to its level and that's not what I'm looking for on a forum.

If I want a fight, I'll go to the nearest pub and tell the biggest guy there his mom is a whore.

Originally Posted by Gollandski Yozh

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

I'm afraid you were misinformed. Yes they were imployes of a French company and this business they were going about was a criminal one and connected with drugs and child pornography. Please, Yozh, you'll only make a fool of yourself - I know this case like the back of my hand - I was once on the force, you know.

Connected with drugs and child pornography? So what (even if it's true)? They were suspects. The police arrests people. The judge punishes them. And corporal punishment is not a possibility under Russian law, so...

My dear sir, when a hardened criminal refuses to put his hands up and surrender, although he has been given a warning, but threatens to attack the officers and members of the public, the correct way of handling the situation is to throw the bastard on his stomach and handcuff his hands behind his back and if he gets a few bruises while this is happening to him, so what? And if he tries playing silly buggers down at the station and attacks officers there I think it's only right that they put up a stiff resistance too. You will be shocked to find out that this is exactly what happens in all countries where the police are not a joke.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Originally Posted by Gollandski Yozh

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

I'm afraid you were misinformed. Yes they were imployes of a French company and this business they were going about was a criminal one and connected with drugs and child pornography. Please, Yozh, you'll only make a fool of yourself - I know this case like the back of my hand - I was once on the force, you know.

Connected with drugs and child pornography? So what (even if it's true)? They were suspects. The police arrests people. The judge punishes them. And corporal punishment is not a possibility under Russian law, so...

My dear sir, when a hardened criminal refuses to put his hands up and surrender, although he has been given a warning, but threatens to attack the officers and members of the public, the correct way of handling the situation is to throw the bastard on his stomach and handcuff his hands behind his back and if he gets a few bruises while this is happening to him, so what? And if he tries playing silly buggers down at the station and attacks officers there I think it's only right that they put up a stiff resistance too. You will be shocked to find out that this is exactly what happens in all countries where the police are not a joke.

So, since you "know this case like the back of your hand" (biiiiig ), are you telling me those French attacked the poor, defenseless keepers of order in the city on the Neva? They had it coming to them? Threathened to cut their throats? Export French cheese to Russia? Exactly what was their crime?