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Thread: Hey Everyone

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    Hey Everyone

    Hey everyone, I am also fairly new to the russian language; this is my second semester taking it at a university (currently doing course 102). I really do like the language and hope that someday I will be half decent at it. I can understand Russian easier than I can speak it. Right now I am having trouble learning what exactly the при-, по-, and the про prefixes prefixes in the imperfective/perfective case. I am also having a little trouble understanding the future cases and how to use them. I really look forward to meeting everyone on the forum and hopefully by sometime this year understand a conversation in Russian!

    -спасибо c удовольствием, Уирм

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    Re: Hey Everyone

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrm
    Hey everyone, I am also fairly new to the russian language; this is my second semester taking it at a university (currently doing course 102). I really do like the language and hope that someday I will be half decent at it. I can understand Russian easier than I can speak it. Right now I am having trouble learning what exactly the при-, по-, and the про prefixes prefixes in the imperfective/perfective case. I am also having a little trouble understanding the future cases and how to use them. I really look forward to meeting everyone on the forum and hopefully by sometime this year understand a conversation in Russian!

    -спасибо c удовольствием, Уирм
    Welcome to the forum!

    First of all these aren't cases, they're verb tenses, aspects and prefixes that usually change verb aspect. Sorry for a bit of pedantry, but... It's difficult to discuss fine distinctions without fine terminology.

    Anyway, I don't know what method your professors use, but I doubt that you can really put an exact meaning on such a prefixes. They're a bit like the second part of a compound verb in English. "Up" in "to stand up", "to pony up", "to set up", etc. may or may not mean what the verb has anything to do with upward motion. The three prefixes you listed are (roughly)
    при - "in" ROUGHLY as "in" in "come in" (but "to come" is "приходить", "to come in" is "заходить"... both are imperfective, the corresponding perfectives are "прийти" и "зайти" the conjugation is like "ходить/идти".)
    по - no definite meaning.
    про - "through"
    But THEY ARE NOT EXACTLY THE SAME THING.

    And although all three tend to change aspect to perfective, they don't do it always. Sorry, but there's no surefire way except looking into the dictionary.

    As for the future... Well, if the verb is perfective its present declension is already the future, you don't have present perfect in Russian. For imperfective verbs you need conjugated auxiliary "to be" and infinitive. Except if the verb is "to be" itself:
    Он победит своего врага. - "He will have won over his enemy."
    But
    Он будет побеждать своего врага - "He will be winning over his enemy."
    (note that although both "победить" and "побеждать" have prefix "по" they aren't both perfective.)
    Будет сделано! - "It will be done!"
    В мае здесь будет красиво... - "It will be beautiful here in the May."

    As simple as that, you just have to learn all those aspects.


    P.S. I'm not really a grammar expert, just a random bilingual guy from the Internet. Don't tell this to your professor without cross-checking.
    I often edit my posts five times or so, after I've sent them. Sorry for any confusion, feel free to correct me.

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    Re: Hey Everyone

    one more note on "побеждать" There's no corresponding verb without the prefix in most such cases, but you need to check your dictionary to verify that, which negates the whole point of the exercise. You may as well look up the verb itself.
    I often edit my posts five times or so, after I've sent them. Sorry for any confusion, feel free to correct me.

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    Re: Hey Everyone

    Oh wow, so if you have a perfective verb in Russian, it looks identical to the one in the past? This is where I start to lose my grasp of Russian grammar. The imperfective part makes sense, though. It's kinda of like conjugated "will ______" in the future (I will ___, you will ____, he will ___, etc). However, in my book, it shows the imperfective present turning into the perfective future, which again, has me lost.

    Example:

    Present Tense/Imperfective Aspect-------------Future Tense/Perfective Aspect
    Я говорю ------------------------------------------Я скажу
    Я обедаю------------------------------------------Я пообедаю
    Я покупаю------------------------------------------Я спрашу
    Я начинаю-----------------------------------------Я начину
    I really don't understand this part....

    Another question: when do you use the verb "идти/ехать" compared to the verb "заходить." There seems to be a lot of movement verbs in Russian...

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    Re: Hey Everyone

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrm
    Oh wow, so if you have a perfective verb in Russian, it looks identical to the one in the past?
    No, not really. What I meant was that there's no way to distinguish perfect and past perfect in Russian. (In sentences like "I had done this before I have done that." one and the same tense is used in Russian. )

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrm
    This is where I start to lose my grasp of Russian grammar. The imperfective part makes sense, though. It's kinda of like conjugated "will ______" in the future (I will ___, you will ____, he will ___, etc). However, in my book, it shows the imperfective present turning into the perfective future, which again, has me lost.

    Example:

    Present Tense/Imperfective Aspect-------------Future Tense/Perfective Aspect
    Я говорю ------------------------------------------Я скажу
    Я обедаю------------------------------------------Я пообедаю
    Я покупаю------------------------------------------Я спрошу (куплю)
    Я начинаю-----------------------------------------Я нач[s:ilqqlrcn]и[/s:ilqqlrcn]ну

    The logic here should be quite alien to an English-speaker (the same way idea that there is such a thing as present perfect distinct from past perfect was to me back then...) but it goes as follows. Perfective verbs mean some completed action. Russian present tense means "right this instant" (it may mean other things in the context, but this is its most basic function). Since the whole completed action couldn't take place right this instant, there's no sense in having present perfective. So a perfective verb in present tense must mean something else entirely.

    Here, for a complex historical reason I don't want to explain, it couldn't mean the same thing as English present/past perfects do, so it started to mean "completed action in the future" and so a "proper" future tense for perfective verbs became unneeded and was lost. Imperfective verbs, on the contrary, retained distinct future tense with an auxillary.

    This is a not an exact account of what happened to Old Russian tenses when it had been transforming into Modern Russian, this is a "just so" story to show the logic behind it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrm

    Another question: when do you use the verb "идти/ехать" compared to the verb "заходить." There seems to be a lot of movement verbs in Russian...
    Well, I did not. It wasn't "идти/ехать" it was "идти/ходить." "Идти" is irregular, and so are all the verbs derived from it, although the stem may be contracted.

    Sorry for the formatting.
    Code:
    Past
         Прийти               Приходить
    Я    пришёл/пришла   приходил(а)
    Ты  пришёл/пришла  приходил(а)
    Он  пришёл               приходил
    Она пришла               приходила
    Мы  пришли               приходили 
    Вы  пришли               приходили
    Они пришли               приходили 
    
    Present 
          Приходить
    Я    Прихожу  
    Ты  Приходишь
    Он  Приходит
    Мы Приходим
    Вы Приходите
    Они Приходят
    
    
    Future
           Прийти        Приходить
    Я     приду          буду приходить
    Ты   придёшь     будешь приходить
    Он   придёт        будет приходить
    Мы  придём       будем приходить
    Вы   придёте     будете приходить
    Они придут       будут приходить
    Similar changes happen to "зайти" (зашёл(-ла), зайду (notice the "й"))

    And quite a lot of speakers use obsolete "прийду" but "й" there is an error according to strict rules.

    Again, I may be severely mistaken, don't quote me, etc.
    I often edit my posts five times or so, after I've sent them. Sorry for any confusion, feel free to correct me.

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    Re: Hey Everyone

    Wyrm, you need to go out and buy your own textbooks on Russian grammar. IMHO, Do not rely on standard university books, they suck big time for the individual who wants to study at home. Their explanations of the cases and aspects and examples are poor, plus you need a book with the answers to exercises in the back.
    You can get explanations here, http://www.alphadictionary.com/rusgrammar/
    Get a copy of the book 501 Russian Verbs also, or similar.
    Let me be a free man, free to travel, free to stop, free to work, free to trade where I choose, free to choose my own teachers, free to follow the religion of my fathers, free to talk, think and act for myself. - Chief Joseph, Nez Perce

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    Re: Hey Everyone

    Yeah, my quotation was a little off from the book, I meant for it to look like

    Example:

    Present Tense/Imperfective Aspect--------------Future Tense/Perfective Aspect
    Я говорю ------------------------------------------------------Я скажу
    Я обедаю------------------------------------------------------Я пообедаю
    Я покупаю-----------------------------------------------------Я куплю
    Я спрашиваю-------------------------------------------------Я спрашу
    Я начинаю----------------------------------------------------Я начину
    I probably should have check over it before I submitted :P

    Ok, so I think I now understand what perfective and imperfective mean, and I understand the function now of the auxilary with an infinitive. So if I wanted to say "I will eat lunch at twelve o'clock," it would be "В двенадцать часов, я приду буду пообедаю" (this would be in the imperfective tense, I believe), correct? However, future perfective would be more like "В двенадцать часов, когда я пообедаю," right? Also, earlier you said the при-, по-, and the про- prefixes only happen in the perfective tense and depend upon the word, I believe? So having one of those prefixes in the imperfective case is very rare if not impossible? Just wanted to make sure I understood correctly.

    This russian grammar is killing me, but you are doing a really good job explaining it to me

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    Re: Hey Everyone

    Quote Originally Posted by DDT
    Wyrm, you need to go out and buy your own textbooks on Russian grammar. IMHO, Do not rely on standard university books, they suck big time for the individual who wants to study at home. Their explanations of the cases and aspects and examples are poor, plus you need a book with the answers to exercises in the back.
    You can get explanations here, http://www.alphadictionary.com/rusgrammar/
    Get a copy of the book 501 Russian Verbs also, or similar.
    This is the book I am using currently: http://www.alibris.com/search/books/qwo ... 0Everybody. It's a little dry and hard to understand, but it comes with two workbooks which have excercises. Plus, the book itself has some. I'll look for more, though. Answers in the back would be awesome.

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    Re: Hey Everyone

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrm
    So if I wanted to say "I will eat lunch at twelve o'clock," it would be "В двенадцать часов, я приду буду пообедаю"
    No.
    Either
    В двенадцать часов_ (no comma here) я буду обедать
    OR
    В двенадцать часов я пообедаю

    They both mean almost the same, and there is no important difference in the meaning, at least in everyday language.
    I also don't see how "приду" got in your sentence.
    In Russian, all nationalities and their corresponding languages start with a lower-case letter.

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    Re: Hey Everyone

    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrm
    Yeah, my quotation was a little off from the book, I meant for it to look like
    It still has the same misspellings and misuses. If that's something written in your textbook, well... I don't envy you.

    Anyway, I meant formatting of my example, not yours.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrm

    Ok, so I think I now understand what perfective and imperfective mean, and I understand the function now of the auxilary with an infinitive. So if I wanted to say "I will eat lunch at twelve o'clock," it would be [s:hkmuhm7k]"В двенадцать часов, я приду буду пообедаю"[/s:hkmuhm7k] (this would be in the imperfective tense, I believe), correct? However, future perfective would be more like "В двенадцать часов, когда я пообедаю," right?
    The second one is ok, The first one makes no sense at all. here's the right one:
    В двенадцать часов я буду обедать. (If you meant "I will eat lunch." Comma is also unneedded here, but that's another story entirely.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrm
    Also, earlier you said the при-, по-, and the про- prefixes only happen in the perfective tense and depend upon the word, I believe? So having one of those prefixes in the imperfective case is very rare if not impossible? Just wanted to make sure I understood correctly.

    This russian grammar is killing me, but you are doing a really good job explaining it to me
    Well, here's your misunderstanding. (ADD: Sorry, if it was caused by me being unclear before. As I said, the concept is so alien to English that explaining it clearly on the first try requires command of both languages I might not really have.)

    Verb aspects aren't really tenses. They're fixed properties of the verb itself. Some verbs are intrinsically perfective, some aren't, and although prefixes play a role in that, you CAN NOT RELY on them. It would be much easier if you could.

    So, you should see now what I've done above.

    "Пообедать" is a perfective verb, meaning "will have eaten lunch" not "eating lunch," not "to eat lunch," not anything else. That "have" is attached to it permanently, but "will" can be removed by putting it into past tense, so it would mean just "have eaten lunch".

    So, since I can't get rid of that pesky "have" hidden in "пообедать" I need another verb entirely, - its imperfective counterpart which means just "to eat lunch" - "обедать" and put a correct auxiliary form in front of it to get the "will" part: "я буду обедать".

    And again, there's no ways to add "have" то "обедать" you should throw it away and use its counterpart with "will have" built-in.

    Tense is something you can do to the same verb, aspect is something that requires throwing a verb away and replacing it with an entirely different one. (as far as a non-native speaker is concerned, anyway. Natives see the patterns rather easily, and so will you eventually. )

    DDT's link has another explanation of how aspect differs from tense and how it's similar.
    http://www.alphadictionary.com/rusgrammar/aspect.html
    I often edit my posts five times or so, after I've sent them. Sorry for any confusion, feel free to correct me.

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    Re: Hey Everyone

    Quote Originally Posted by Оля
    They both mean almost the same, and there is no important difference in the meaning, at least in everyday language.
    Well, talking about lunches there isn't that much difference in English either. No one says "I will have eaten lunch" that often. But these finer distinctions are needed when talking Grammar 102... Or in, say, situations like those: (forgot how they were properly called.)

    Я пообедаю до того как они придут. = "I will eat{=have eaten} lunch before they'll come." not "I will be eating lunch before..."
    I often edit my posts five times or so, after I've sent them. Sorry for any confusion, feel free to correct me.

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    Re: Hey Everyone

    Hey Wyrm

    Congrats on getting started on Russian. Here's my tip for you: nearly everything about grammar will be confusing the first, second or even third time someone explains it to you. Just get as many different approaches to things as you can. Memorize some sentences and phrases. You'll observe how the grammar works when you know that sentence X in Russian translates to sentence Y in English. Ask lots of questions, make lots of mistakes and have fun.

    One dirty little secret is that native English speakers who have been learning Russian may very well be able to explain the grammar better than native Russian speakers. There's plenty of material out there for learning, much of it free. I'll add this one since I think they have a nice clean and clear approach to things:
    http://www.fsi-language-courses.org/Con ... ge=Russian

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