Thread: usage of national flags in the new language sections

Why is it only the trio of Dutch, German and Polish that have flags attached to the headings? This makes them stand out, but why? BTW it is non sequitur for German and Dutch, these languages are spoken in more than one country (oh, and the "platt" that is spoken both in Germany and in the Netherlands). Perhaps it is only Norwegian and Polish that qualify for a "single-country" language, but do we want to have flags for some languages only?

I think that Masteradmin just couldn't find a flag of Norway. And as for German and Dutch, they are spoken in one main country of origin. Arabic is spoken across, what, 20 countries? And Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian, well, those are 3 different languages in three different countries.

PS: Do not get all smart on me, misters, and tell me that all three languages are spoken in all three countries or whatever, because I'm frankly not that interested.

Precisely because of that "Arabic is spoken across, what, 20 countries?" it means that Arabic is not going to have a flag. Neither is the section on Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian. Having flags for some languages and not having for the others may seem unfair, and having the flag of a foreign country for your language may seem even more unfair.

As for the main country of origin, well, you're seriously mistaken. Germany is not the main country of origin; likewise, the Flanders may be considered the country of origin just as well as Holland.

Where did German come from then? And I mean Middle and Modern German, not Germanic.

Originally Posted by Jasper May

Where did German come from then? And I mean Middle and Modern German, not Germanic.

First off, Germany did not exist back then. All those little "principalities" that existed in the limits of modern Germany were "independent". In practice, of course, they were dominated by Prussia and Austria (still earlier, there were strong ties with the Low Lands, the Hanseatic League et al). The Austrian dialect is a major ingredient in High German.

Well, there was something called a Holy Roman Empire (yeah, yeah, I know, neither ... nor ... nor ...) in the middle ages (the First Reich) which was German. Maybe they were effectively independent, but that doesn't mean that the German language did originate from that area, and that that area is now for the most part Germany. Otherwise you could say that the English language didn't really originate in England because before Egbert/Aethelwulf there were numerous independent kingdoms in what we now call England (Mercia, Northumbria, Wessex etc.).

You could at least put a Russian flag in the Russian section

I don't really care all that much about the flags. Maybe you could use this pic for Arabic

I do hope you don't mean the broken link image.

There, it's fixed. Enjoy!

You could also always use this hot guy on the cover of "Learn Arabic Now V7", the first and last piece of computer language learning software that I have ever bought. I only bought it because of him.

Originally Posted by bad manners

Why is it only the trio of Dutch, German and Polish that have flags attached to the headings? This makes them stand out, but why? BTW it is non sequitur for German and Dutch, these languages are spoken in more than one country (oh, and the "platt" that is spoken both in Germany and in the Netherlands). Perhaps it is only Norwegian and Polish that qualify for a "single-country" language, but do we want to have flags for some languages only?

I will add the rest of flags later. Didn't have time to finish. For Arabic, I think of simply putting a sample of Arabic script instead of flags.

Originally Posted by bad manners

Precisely because of that "Arabic is spoken across, what, 20 countries?" it means that Arabic is not going to have a flag. Neither is the section on Serbian, Bosnian and Croatian. Having flags for some languages and not having for the others may seem unfair, and having the flag of a foreign country for your language may seem even more unfair.

As for the main country of origin, well, you're seriously mistaken. Germany is not the main country of origin; likewise, the Flanders may be considered the country of origin just as well as Holland.

I will put those flags that I feel like putting (sounds like Mr.Putin :-) If you think something is not fair then send me a picture of a flag and I'll try to put it as well.

Originally Posted by Pravit

You could at least put a Russian flag in the Russian section

Look at the name of the site. It's Russian by default But a little decorations wouldn't do any harm.

Sigh. I hoped the flags would have been removed completely. Now you have two flags for the English language, but you're forgetting about Australia, Canada, New Zealand, etc, etc; and you still have one flag for the German language, while it must also have those of Austria, Switzerland, France, Belgium, Luxembourg and Lichtenstein.

And when that is done for every language, will that look ugly! Actually, I think it does already.

To Jasper: the Holy Roman Empire was later known as the Austrian Empire. Saying "that area is now for the most part Germany" is plain wrong. If you want to discuss that further, let's do that in Politics.

For me it seems that these flags brake the visual accuracy of the forum. And they surely don't help in distingushing between sections.

Nah, let's not. Let's hijack this thread.

The German Empire wasn't the same as the Austrian Empire. I presume you know about the empire of Charlemagne and its subsequent fragmentation. It was divided in three parts: France, Germany, and a piece inbetween that was later added to both countries. Of course that couldn't last, what with the Magyar, Arabic and Viking raids/invasions. So it broke up, etc.etc. and then by the time of Frederick Barbarossa, the HRE approximately consisted of the kingdoms of Bohemia, Burgundy, Italy, Germany and the Papal States. After the Middle Ages it was again divided and redistributed (Burgundians, Habsburgs) and in the end the Austrians received a couple of pieces of the Empire (not the whole). Then at the time of the Second Empire, Prussia was more important, and Austria was only partly part of the HRE. The rest you know.

So maybe I didn't mean the HRE but the Kingdom of Germany, it even strengthens the point. By the time of the Second Empire, to which you were probably referring, the HRE almost only consisted of modern day Germany and Austria (and Czechslovakia, but they don't speak German).

Actually, all this hasn't got anything to do with the simple fact that: Middle to Modern German originated in the Kingdom of Germany, and the Kingdom of Germany is, now, for the most part, the Bundesrepublik Deutschland.

Jasper, you've just confirmed that Austria and Switzerland are among the countries that have spoken German since the times immemorial. As are Belgium, France, Luxembourg and Lichtenstein. I will just single out Austria one more time because the standard "High German" language has stronger ties with Austria and Bavaria than with anything else.

1. The Emperor Ludwig the Bavarian wrote his documents, naturally, in his dialect. (1314-1347)
2. Karl IV, who resided in Prague (sic!), did the same. (1347-137
3. Martin Luther's Bible used the "official" German of Prague. (16th century) This essentially set a paradigm of the grammar and lexicon throughout Germany (even where Low German was used, this language was in common use for business transactions).
4. In 1879, a formal orthography of the language was published in Bavaria.
5. In 1880, Duden published his famous dictionary "in accordance with the new Bavarian and Prussian rules".

Essentially, the language as it is today is the language of the Southerners with some Northern phonetic twists (say, the voiced "s"). This is why it is called "High" German. The guys in the North are in fact bilingual.

As for Czechoslovakia, you're mistaken again. See "Prague" above and recall the Sudetenland in 1938.

Originally Posted by bad manners

Jasper, you've just confirmed that Austria and Switzerland are among the countries that have spoken German since the times immemorial. As are Belgium, France, Luxembourg and Lichtenstein.

I certainly did. I don't contest that. But I only said that the area in which German has been spoken 'since the times immemorial' is, now, for the most part, Germany.

1. The Emperor Ludwig the Bavarian wrote his documents, naturally, in his dialect. (1314-1347)
2. Karl IV, who resided in Prague (sic!), did the same. (1347-137

Most kings in history didn't speak the language of the country they were ruling, and most didn't even try. Most of the Norman and Angevin kings of England couldn't speak English. George I could only speak German.

3. Martin Luther's Bible used the "official" German of Prague. (16th century) This essentially set a paradigm of the grammar and lexicon throughout Germany (even where Low German was used, this language was in common use for business transactions).

Interesting. But well, he would, wouldn't he? He lived in the area. Prague isn't all that far from Wittenberg.

4. In 1879, a formal orthography of the language was published in Bavaria.

Does that matter? I believe the first formal orthography of Mongolian was written in China...

5. In 1880, Duden published his famous dictionary "in accordance with the new Bavarian and Prussian rules".

Actually, Bavaria lies in the south - but still almost completely within modern-day Germany - and Prussia in the north. This argument doesn't amount to much.

As for Czechoslovakia, you're mistaken again. See "Prague" above and recall the Sudetenland in 1938.

Why? If I get my atlas of world history I can see quite clearly that for most of the later Middle Ages, Czech(oslovakia) belonged to the HRE. But not to the Kingdom of Germany. There's a difference.

FYI: I'm just experimenting with the flags. So I might remove them finally.

Originally Posted by Jasper May

I certainly did. I don't contest that. But I only said that the area in which German has been spoken 'since the times immemorial' is, now, for the most part, Germany.

If you only consider the "High German" area, it will barely amount to a half. Seriously.

[quote:sm4e7t9i]1. The Emperor Ludwig the Bavarian wrote his documents, naturally, in his dialect. (1314-1347)
2. Karl IV, who resided in Prague (sic!), did the same. (1347-137

Most kings in history didn't speak the language of the country they were ruling, and most didn't even try. Most of the Norman and Angevin kings of England couldn't speak English. George I could only speak German.[/quote:sm4e7t9i]

Jasper, those two emperors (not kings, mind you) were German by blood and they did speak German. Most important was that their chanceries conducted their business in the local dialect of High German. Thus it became the official language of the empire. Luther, who actually lived in Saxony, used that same language (which was more than a bit different from his local dialect) because it was understood everywhere and it was "authoritative" (i.e., had he used some Saxon dialect, the other lands might have objected, but they would have known better than to object to the official dialect).

[quote:sm4e7t9i]4. In 1879, a formal orthography of the language was published in Bavaria.

Does that matter? I believe the first formal orthography of Mongolian was written in China...[/quote:sm4e7t9i]

Well, it does, because this is the orthography of High German almost as it is known now.

[quote:sm4e7t9i]5. In 1880, Duden published his famous dictionary "in accordance with the new Bavarian and Prussian rules".

Actually, Bavaria lies in the south - but still almost completely within modern-day Germany - and Prussia in the north. This argument doesn't amount to much. [/quote:sm4e7t9i]

Bavaria and Austria share the same dialect. Bavaria was Austrian protectorate for quite some time. Prussia, on the other hand, lies within the Low German area. But Duden's grammar was identical to the Bavarian. This does mean that the Austro-Bavarian dialect became de facto and de jure the standard dialect, even in Prussia.

[quote:sm4e7t9i]As for Czechoslovakia, you're mistaken again. See "Prague" above and recall the Sudetenland in 1938.

Why? If I get my atlas of world history I can see quite clearly that for most of the later Middle Ages, Czech(oslovakia) belonged to the HRE. But not to the Kingdom of Germany. There's a difference.[/quote:sm4e7t9i]

Correct. And given that the modern High German language has roots there, it means that Germany is not the sole owner of the language.

And you are forgetting Dutch.

Not to be a dissident, but I like the flags. I think they add a nice bit of color.

Maybe you could put such sample of Arabic text "Arabic" and not "Thank You"... But I don't really mind either way.