Thread: MasterRussian.NET: before and after

I didn't notice any moderation here... Though I'm new, of course, but when there are a lot of strict rules which are continually and mercilessly reinforced I usually see that from the start... Somehow, it seems that there isn't much need for moderation here because everyone's quite nice...

I have to tell ya, a forum without moderation is not a place where freedom of speech rules - it's a place where people don't respect each other and discussions degenerate into personal abuse. For many years now I've been a member of an American literary forum where the main rule is "Be nice". Well, actually discussing potentially dangerous topics like politics and religion is forbidden and you see moderation pretty often - the rule "Be nice" is constantly gently reminded and reinforced but when it is put in the politest and gentlest form possible with smilies and flowers you don't resent it at all. So when I switched on to one Russian forum I was absolutely flabbergasted by the anarchy - everyone called each other names and resorted to arguments in the style "Сам дурак" (by the way, how do you translate it? You're a fool yourself?) and there was either no moderation or the moderators themselves were very rude and sneering in their moderating posts.

So yeah, difficult subject...

eta: I think it's a good idea to bear in mind that "Your freedom ends where my starts".

I really fail to see why should the swearwords be censored. I mean it's not like they're used very often, so if someone decides to write one it's to serve a certain function, usually emphasise. And we are, after all, adults.
As for the anti-anything posts you've all so eagerly brought up - again, it's not like they were on a regular basis and we had millions of threats titles "We bash whatever here". There were, however, certain situations in which such opinions appeared and caused a heated debate. And frankly, it's a very good way of mastering your language Sure, I was not the most active member, but I read the posts regularly, and I think once or twice I was mildly involved in an argument of that kind, trying to prove someone wrong. Either way, whoever posts insulting opinions is actually showing what kind of a person he is, and I suppose I'd rather know that than speak with someone who's deep down hating Jews/Russians/Americans etc yet pretending otherwise cause that's what the society told them to. I mean, if we're not using the "N-word" to describe a black person because we realize we're not supposed to and perhaps even out of fear, and not because WE think it's disrespectful and wrong, then it's not exactly right.
That brings us to the very question of human nature - whether we are what we are because of the social norms, or because that's who we actually are?
Political correctness is important, but I have a feeling it is basically being taken too far nowadays. I mean, it is thanks to that, to some extend, that we are experiencing reverse discrimination these days.

Clearly, I am not talking about a situation in which a user is not doing anything else but insulting others for no reason at all - cause that just calls for a ban. I'm talking about having extreme opinions and being able to discuss them.

Originally Posted by starrysky

"Сам дурак" (by the way, how do you translate it? You're a fool yourself?)

I know you are but what am I?

I haven't been here for long but I don't notice much moderation either. Maybe it's in the Russian language areas which I don't read because I don't read the language easily enough yet to try and understand posts with only marginal interest to me.

The one thing I have noticed, and by Lampada, too, is that Lampada asked someone currently posting longish essays in English, which I corrected, to reciprocate by helping out with corrections or replies to learners of Russian. A valid piece of advice, if you ask me, and it didn't lead to any deletions or censure.

This poll as such seems to have the agenda of proving that moderation is too heavy. Yet it is not being moderated, as yet, which I think is just the way I would want it to be. Certainly it doesn't seem to me that the moderators are bent on preserving only their opinion on the forum.

BTW, is there even anything to see clearly that a given user has mod status?

Originally Posted by kamka

Political correctness is important, but I have a feeling it is basically being taken too far nowadays.

100% agree. I don't think it is much of a problem in this forum, but it SURELY IS in European newspapers.

Originally Posted by bitpicker

I don't notice much moderation either. Maybe it's in the Russian language areas (.....)

This poll as such seems to have the agenda of proving that moderation is too heavy.

Yeah, like most polls, it has an agenda.

Why don't you throw up an example of something that you think has been wrongly moderated and let the rest of us have a look?

Someone (above) suggested that there was "America - bashing" on the BBC. That's ludicrous, there certainly isn't. BBC is state-owned and very well monitored for political incorrectness (which includes serious complaints about the US). It practically never critisizes the US about anything.

back before i forgot my password on my raskolnikov account this place was a lot more active.
i miss the mike VM flame days

Originally Posted by kamka

That brings us to the very question of human nature - whether we are what we are because of the social norms, or because that's who we actually are?

I think material wealth and physical comfort allow us the luxury of kindness and tolerance but we're basically murderous, tribal savages just below the surface.

Originally Posted by sperk

Originally Posted by kamka

That brings us to the very question of human nature - whether we are what we are because of the social norms, or because that's who we actually are?

I think material wealth and physical comfort allow us the luxury of kindness and tolerance but we're basically murderous, tribal savages just below the surface.

we are, aren't we! It's actually a subject of my MA thesis. I'm thinking "murderous tribal savages just below the surface" would make a pretty good title for it, if they still allow me to make that final change! The credit's all yours!

Originally Posted by Lt. Columbo

back before i forgot my password on my raskolnikov account this place was a lot more active.
i miss the mike VM flame days

Funny you should mention that! I met with VM a couple of times in person and he is a very considerate and helpful guy. His English is impeccable, complete with even a British accent. Where he got it from I don't know but at first when I spoke with him I thought that maybe he was not Russian afterall! But he certainly is. His English accent turns back into Russian after a few beers. Anyway the point is that you can't tell what a person is like by his posts.

Does this forum have a policy for posters to follow? I quote part of the policy of a forum I am on that is one of the most pleasant and productive ones I know of.


GENERAL

"Discussions should be conducted without fondness for dispute or desire for victory." - Ben Franklin

This is a moderated forum. We expect this forum to be a place where people can feel comfortable asking questions and where debates and discussions are conducted in civil tones. Respect your debating opponents. Debates are about issues, not people. If you disagree with an idea, go ahead and marshal all your forces against it. But do not confuse ideas with the person posting them; at all times we must conduct ourselves in a respectful manner to other posters. Attacks on individuals, insults, name calling, trolling, baiting or other attempts to sow dissension are not acceptable. If you feel that someone has attacked you or otherwise violated the policies of this forum, do not respond in kind. Instead, contact a Moderator or Site Administrator by PM and ask them to review the problem posts.

Please remember that any poster can edit their own posts after submitting then, so comments made in haste can be rephrased. If you saw red and realized later that you should have counted to ten before posting, consider rephrasing before battle is joined.

We also request that you use meaningful titles on new topics and avoid posting in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS or otherwise using distracting formatting. Moderators may edit titles or reformat posts that do not follow these suggestions.

Originally Posted by chaika

Does this forum have a policy for posters to follow? I quote part of the policy of a forum I am on that is one of the most pleasant and productive ones I know of.


GENERAL

"Discussions should be conducted without fondness for dispute or desire for victory." - Ben Franklin

This is a moderated forum. We expect this forum to be a place where people can feel comfortable asking questions and where debates and discussions are conducted in civil tones. Respect your debating opponents. Debates are about issues, not people. If you disagree with an idea, go ahead and marshal all your forces against it. But do not confuse ideas with the person posting them; at all times we must conduct ourselves in a respectful manner to other posters. Attacks on individuals, insults, name calling, trolling, baiting or other attempts to sow dissension are not acceptable. If you feel that someone has attacked you or otherwise violated the policies of this forum, do not respond in kind. Instead, contact a Moderator or Site Administrator by PM and ask them to review the problem posts.

Please remember that any poster can edit their own posts after submitting then, so comments made in haste can be rephrased. If you saw red and realized later that you should have counted to ten before posting, consider rephrasing before battle is joined.

We also request that you use meaningful titles on new topics and avoid posting in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS or otherwise using distracting formatting. Moderators may edit titles or reformat posts that do not follow these suggestions.

No one would argue with that. But the question is, Is that what is being done here? Just because one person says, yes we should edit that post, doesn't make the decision to edit right. What one person doesn't like, another person does like. That is why we in the USA have the 1st Amendment....to protect speech that others DON'T want to hear. We don't have it or need it to protect sweet talk! To delete speech that some don't like is a sure way to have ALL speech carefully scrutinized by the the Over-Lords.

Да, хотелось бы увидеть наших бывших участников. Даже странно, что так много человек пропало без вести. Будем надеяться, что всё у них хорошо.
Пусть бы хоть Vending Machine вернулся что ли...

going on posts, VM was a complete douche, but he did add a certain amount of масло to the MR огонь as it were

It's great to hear feedback from our users. But we want to keep it constructive. So if you believe moderation is too heavy (or too light), please give your reasons to believe so and propose rules for moderation that would satisfy you. You could explain what you want to see moderated and what not.

If you say "I'm against any moderation" please explain how you will deal with situations where spam or outright offensive comments are posted, or when someone posts drunk remarks in the middle of the night.

If you want to swear on this forum, that's fine. I can turn on a feature where only you will see swear words, but others won't see them by default. Maybe we could create a special rank -- "This user may swear"

Показательная цитатка по случаю...

Originally Posted by Dogboy182

I'm drunk and I don't give no fuсk. Fuсk you all.

Except the cool guys, you know who you are.

Fuсk shiт аss ьitch cunt fart poop cock turd twat. shoopty doowap.

Отсюда...
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1654&p=223558#p223558

Очень показательная. Интересная дискуссия выродилась черт знает во что. А ведь истина, вроде, должна рождаться в споре, при условии, что стороны доказывают и высказывают свою тзр, а не бросаются оскорблениями... Мне вот оч. понравилась ветка про войну в Южной Осетии - интересная и thought-provoking. Много всякого узнала. И даже удивилась, что такой горячий топик так цивильно обсудили.

Вот, хорошие и продуктивные правила, по-моему:

"1. Be nice. This is our most important and most strictly enforced rule. We respect and embrace everyone's right to disagree and the spirited discussions that come out of differences of opinion, but there is never an excuse to be rude/derogatory/insulting. Offending comments (and words) will be deleted right away and the offender warned; those who persist will be banned. The TLC forum, like the TLC comments, is to be a place where enthusiastic and intelligent minds can come together, something no one can do while fighting. Please take a moment to remember that without differences of opinion the world would be a very boring place.
Related: What is a flame? Flaming is outlawed on the TLC board. Flaming is different from criticism: criticism points out something that could be improved. Disagreement is not a flame. Flaming includes but is not limited to insults or harassment of others based on actual or perceived gender, sexual orientation, age, race, ethnicity, religion, national origin or political affiliation. Do not post a comment that is that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortuous, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy or hateful."

Originally Posted by starrysky

Очень показательная. Интересная дискуссия выродилась черт знает во что. А ведь истина, вроде, должна рождаться в споре, при условии, что стороны доказывают и высказывают свою тзр, а не бросаются оскорблениями... Мне вот оч. понравилась ветка про войну в Южной Осетии - интересная и thought-provoking. Много всякого узнала. И даже удивилась, что такой горячий топик так цивильно обсудили.

Вот, хорошие и продуктивные правила, по-моему:

"1. Be nice. This is our most important and most strictly enforced rule. We respect and embrace everyone's right to disagree and the spirited discussions that come out of differences of opinion, but there is never an excuse to be rude/derogatory/insulting. Offending comments (and words) will be deleted right away and the offender warned; those who persist will be banned. The TLC forum, like the TLC comments, is to be a place where enthusiastic and intelligent minds can come together, something no one can do while fighting. Please take a moment to remember that without differences of opinion the world would be a very boring place.
Related: What is a flame? Flaming is outlawed on the TLC board. Flaming is different from criticism: criticism points out something that could be improved. Disagreement is not a flame. Flaming includes but is not limited to insults or harassment of others based on actual or perceived gender, sexual orientation, age, race, ethnicity, religion, national origin or political affiliation. Do not post a comment that is that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortuous, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive of another's privacy or hateful."

Isn't it to verbose?
We do have forum rules: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=14&start=0
This one still applies: "3 - Do not post obscenities or insult other users. You can challenge somebody's ideas but no personal attacks are allowed".

Just speaking for myself, I'm not convinced that wishing there was a man to "slap sense into" a female poster contributes anything to productive, open communication.

If "free speech" means everyone can always say anything that comes to their mind, than I am not in favor of it. I'm pretty open to lots of things, and not easily shocked, but language learning is best accomplished in an environment where people feel safe and accepted. In my opinion that should be the goal.

One solution I have seen on some other forums is to have a special section of the forum which is unmoderated. Threads that get insulting can be sent there.

I'm prefer moderated forums approximately the same way I prefer bathrooms that are cleaned regularly.

I'm all for free speech but I wouldn't even listen to myself most of the time.

оказательная цитатка по случаю...

Dogboy182 wrote:I'm drunk and I don't give no fuсk. Fuсk you all.

Except the cool guys, you know who you are.

Fuсk shiт аss ьitch cunt fart poop cock turd twat. shoopty doowap.

But in all seriousness, please.
Honestly I stopped stopping by so often just because it doesn't seem as lively as it used to be. I remember I would check this forum 10 times a day because it seemed like there was so much to talk about. Nowadays it seems like only 2 or 3 people want to have the answer to everything, get their opinion out there first and even if their not first answer a question that has already been answered just to get their names out there and its really annoying and, I think discourages other people from joining.

When somebody, and they know who they are, replies to a legitimate question about a simple Russian grammar rule with "If you can't understand this you're not smart enough to learn Russian" then why the hell are you wasting your time on a forum that is here to teach and help people? If you don't want to help then я никак не пойму что ты здесь делаешь. Go hang out outside of перекресток and hassle teenagers who ask for cigarettes, and warn them of the dangers of smoking if you so desire to discourage people.

I know that most of the old timers will agree with this. 7 years is a long time, I'm pretty sure I know this forum by now.

Originally Posted by DDT

EDIT: By The Way, I screwed up on the poll. There were only supposed to be 3 choices. The line underneath the choice with numbers are actually supposed to be explanations of the numbered choice.

You can still edit it by editing your initial post, can't you?

I think that moderation is about right. The posts and words that get edited usually are not very informative, and the gist of the message remains understandable (by now I can easily fill all the gaps in Dogboy's posts anyway. ) .

BUT I find deleting messages unacceptable. And I think that closing down topics that caused a heated discussion and a number of rude posts doesn't have sense either. It doesn't serve any purpose except.. well... ending a potentially interesting discussion.