I cannot differentiate between soft and hard "Р". I know hard is trilled and soft is palatalized but how do I tell the difference when I read text? And with soft "Р", do I roll it once or give it a minor trill?
Thank you!
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I cannot differentiate between soft and hard "Р". I know hard is trilled and soft is palatalized but how do I tell the difference when I read text? And with soft "Р", do I roll it once or give it a minor trill?
Thank you!
Telling the difference in text is fairly easy: If the р is followed by е, ё, и, ю, я, ь, then it's soft; if it's followed by а, о, у, ы, or is the last letter in a word, then it's hard. If it's followed by another consonant, then it will tend to take its hardness or softness from that consonant. So the nominative singular of the word for "eagle" is орёл, and the р is soft; in the gen. sing. орла, the л is hard because it comes before the hard vowel а, and the р is also hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by LurkingDarkness
And soft р should not be trilled/rolled at all.
The classic скороговорка ("tongue-twister") for practicing the hard and soft versions of р is:
Ехал Грека через реку;
Видит Грека в реке рак.
Сунул Грека в реке руку;
Рак за руку Греку "цап"!
Greka was riding across the river;
Greka sees a crayfish in the river.
Greka stuck his hand into the river;
The crayfish pinched Greka's hand!
So for Грека, is the р soft or hard?
soft, because it's followed by еQuote:
Originally Posted by LurkingDarkness
Thank you very much! The riddle is helping a lot! One more thing, how do you do soft and hard "Л"?
;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Throbert McGee
In Moscow it is always hard before a consonant, if there is no soft sign.Quote:
then it will tend to take its hardness or softness from that consonant.
I don't know what rolled r means. Soft r is a flap like Spanish r in "caro", so the front part (not the tip!) of the toungue touches alveolars once. It is rarelly trilled.Quote:
with soft "Р", do I roll it once or give it a minor trill?
That's a relief to know! My trill isn't very good =P.
In Spanish your choice of short or long trilled R is meaningful, for example: pero and perro have different meanings (but and dog). But not in Russian. So you can say Пррривет! and no-one will fault you for it!
LurkingDarkness- if you're having trouble with palatalization, try to find a native speaker who can help. It is extremely difficult to explain the differences in print!
Quote:
Рак за руку Греки "цап"!
My advice would be to listen to http://masterrussian.net/f52/детские...tml#post215416
There are all kinds of "р" here.
И всё-таки
"Цапнуть руку Греки" или "цапнуть Греку за руку":)Quote:
Рак за руку Греку "цап"!
The most difficult Russian toungue-twister: Король-орёл (eagle-king).
In English: Luke is a hard L. Lieu (as in 'in lieu of') is a soft L. (Lieu is not 'loo')Quote:
Originally Posted by LurkingDarkness
Actually, in US English, "lieu" is quite often pronounced with a hard L, making it a homophone with "loo".Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraph
Similarly with "duke" (герцог), "tulip" (тюльпан), "dew" (роса), and "new"/"news" (новый/новости) -- in US English (or some dialects of US English), the consonants before the "u" are more often pronounced hard (ду, ту, ну) but in UK English, they may be pronounced soft (дю, тю, ню).
I would also add that in US English, although the hard pronunciation is frequently heard, using the soft consonants for these words also sounds "normal", and not "affected". (Using British or French-style pronunciation can sometimes sound affected or grandiose in US English, but not with the words I listed above.)
I hope this doesn't make things more confusing for LurkingDarkness -- my point was that if you're aware that in some dialects of English, the words "do" (делать) and "dew" (роса) are pronounced quite differently (with a "hard Д" in the first word and a "soft Д" in the second one) then the same basic difference applies to "hard Л" and "soft Л".
Anyway, all of them are wrong sounds in Russian. "d" in "dew" can be pronounced like English j, can't it? This sound is neither hard nor soft and does not exist in Russian. Alveolar apical d is not soft and hard enough and does not exist in Russian either. The words listed above differ by presence or lack of the consonant "j" (it is usually spelt in English as "y"), which may cause some changings in consonants but they are not phonemic. In Russian it is the consonant itself which undergoes palatalisation. So, my advice: do not try to approximate Russian sounds with English ones, and especially do not try to understand the difference between soft and hard consonants from English. Better try to pronounce hard consonants correctly first, then it will be easier at least to hear the difference, which is great, in fact.Quote:
I hope this doesn't make things more confusing for LurkingDarkness -- my point was that if you're aware that in some dialects of English, the words "do" (делать) and "dew" (роса) are pronounced quite differently (with a "hard Д" in the first word and a "soft Д" in the second one) then the same basic difference applies to "hard Л" and "soft Л".
Hard l is pronounced with the tip of the toungue on the upper teeth, while soft l is pronounced with front part of the toungue on the alveolars, the tip does not touch the teeth. Soft l is similar to Frenc l, while hard is similar to English "l" in "well".
American English is shifting away from the soft consonants, as in lieu and dew. I should have mentioned that. Throbert has complete agreement from me about these points. People that use the hard pronunciation variants sometimes have a hard time noticing the difference between the hard and soft. They can't tell what softness is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Throbert McGee
You can hear many variants, including the Russian type of soft d.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
Some other consonants in English sometimes in soft mode: dueling mewling pew rue imbue (some of these also heard in hard mode) whew! No Russian soft w, I know.
All the Anglophones have extremely hard time with phonemic palatalisation in any other language.Quote:
People that use the hard pronunciation variants sometimes have a hard time noticing the difference between the hard and soft. They can't tell what softness is.
That doesn't help. Russians, for example, can't say whether б in объём is hard or soft.Quote:
You can hear many variants, including the Russian type of soft d.
I have already created a thread about hard and soft R in the Irish language in Other Languages. I don't hear the difference in a song, although I can hear the difference in many other cases.
That would be incorrectQuote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
It's just both объём and обьём are correct pronunciations, so noone will say that one is incorrect while the other is correct. That's what makes "no difference" not the sound
But can you tell if a person says a hard or a soft sound in this word?Quote:
That would be incorrect
It's just both объём and обьём are correct pronunciations, so noone will say that one is incorrect while the other is correct. That's what makes "no difference" not the sound
Yes, if you listen closely. I've actually tried it myself before posting :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
Here there is a link where you can download the file where I'm slowly reading this short poem. http://narod.ru/disk/32528231001/%D0...D0%B0.wma.htmlQuote:
Ехал Грека через реку;
Видит Грека в реке рак.
Сунул Грека руку в реку ;
Рак за руку Греку "цап"!
Яндекс.Народ
Ехал Грека через реку;
Видит Грека в реке рак.
Сунул Грека руку в реку ;
Рак за руку Греку "цап"!
Here there is a link where you can download the file where I'm slowly reading this short poem.
Что-то надо удалить из двух последних постов. У меня никак не получается.
Что именно?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus
Что угодно.Quote:
Что именно?