I know this may sound strange, but i have discovered that in order to pronounce some of the letters properly, you need to be able to roll your r's
I can't do this and I have no idea how to.
Can anyone help with this?
Debs
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I know this may sound strange, but i have discovered that in order to pronounce some of the letters properly, you need to be able to roll your r's
I can't do this and I have no idea how to.
Can anyone help with this?
Debs
and how did you discover that if you can't roll your r's?Quote:
Originally Posted by Debs
basic idea is that the russian r is totally different than the american r, you can't roll the american r, it simply doesn't roll, the russian are is close to the spanish r, or possibly it's even closer to how the scotts do it. try for example saying "dry" but don't pull your tongue back after you say d, keep it tense and pushed forward, the idea is to get it to vibrate on the alveols, the alveos is where you tongue is when you say d. You can also roll r's in the middle and hte back of your mouth but in all cases the key is to get your tongue to vibrate that's how the rolling comes about.
Erm, some of the letters? You only need to be able to roll your Rs to pronounce the letter R (in Russian P).Quote:
Originally Posted by Debs
She probably meant "some words".
I heard about a trick where you put a pencil under your tounge... Never tried it, since I have no issue with the roll.
Вот, скопировала с http://www.infrance.ru/forum/showthread ... 039&page=2 . Может для кого-нибудь окажется полезным. Я помню, что такую же технику (указательным пальцем делать быстрые горизонтальные движения под языком) логопед использовала с моим братиком, которой не выговарил "р".Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
"Произношение русского "р"
По-моему этот способ ещё не предлагали тут, или я читала невнимательно. Меня логопед так в Москве за 1 раз научил, а мама моя потом, по его методике, всю мою детсадовскую группу
А делать надо следующее. Человек говорит "ж-ж-ж-ж-ж-ж-ж-ж-ж" и тем временем водит быстро-быстро указательным пальцем между зубами из стороны в сторону (во рту должна оказаться максимум одна фаланга). Таким образом можно понять правильное положение языка + понять, как должен виброровать его кончик. Детям потом говорят резко выдернуть палец и продолжать получившееся "р", начав с него какое-нибудь слово (выходит что-то вроде "ж-ж-ж-ж-ж-р-р-р-р-ррррррыба"). ..."
Maybe I misunderstand the concept of rolling r's, but I cannot produce a long "ррррррррррррррр" sound yet I have no problem with pronunciation (I am a native speaker). And moreover I place my tongue asymmetrically (with right front part touching the palate) in my mouth when I pronounce "р".Quote:
Originally Posted by Lampada
I also don't find it hard to pronounce English or German "r".
So maybe it's better to try to listen to and reproduce the sound than reading how-to's and putting various (possibly unsafe) objects in your mouth? :)
I'm not sure if anyone would know this but I've been wondering it.
It is possible for someone to be physically unable to roll their r's? Are there some Russian speakers (natives) that still cannot?
I have wanted to be able to for years from learning German as well as Russian but I'm yet to have any progress with it. I've tried many methods like the ones above but still nothing...
Well, people with a speech impediment would have trouble rolling r's.
And I also read somewhere that not being able to roll your r's is a sex-linked trait, passed down from mother to children. I'm not sure how true that is though. Maybe I can find some more information.
It sure is possible. I've met a few people who told me not be able physically to roll the R's. I guess it must be right for Russian speakers as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by волк
I don't believe people can not physically roll 'r's, unless there is something wrong with their tongues. Everybody is physically capable, it is just hard to start doing it if you didn't do it in your childhood. I have never met a Russian who didn't roll there r's. There is no magic muscle, it is a combination of air and tongue position.
Bottom line: YOU CAN! You just need the right person to teach it to you.
I agree, unless there's something wrong with their tongue. I meant physically because it's a vibration they can't have their tongue to do. I don't think it's just a matter of having the right person to teach you, otherwise anybody would be able to do anything and it would mean that all of us would be physically equal and have the same aptitude and talent.
Not being able to roll your tongue, I have come to believe, is some type of mental defect. I wonder if quaaludes would help.
It's just that I've never had to before and not in childhood as stated.Quote:
Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie
I know for a fact a lot of native English speakers can't for the same reason.
There are lots of ways I've read and been told about, I guess I just need to find one that works best for me.
The closest I've come to it happening was almost unconciously, some times I'm repeating a Russian phase which requires it and it almost happens, probably because I wasn't thinking about it too much.
I don't really roll my r's. I am not sure if genetics have anything to do with it, but my father does not roll them either.Quote:
Originally Posted by волк
I hear that a lot from British people as well...Quote:
Originally Posted by igorfa100
I can roll rrr but I never do it when i speak russian...I just don't need that...it'd sound akward...the tongue just flaps the upper-lip one or two times and that's enough.
Thanks for your replies :)
Well, as a native english speaker, I have never tried to roll my r's before. My mum cannot either, but my sister can.
I will try out all the ideas here and see if it works, I am certain I will be able to get it eventually :P
Thanks again for all the advice and input :)
As a native speaker I can say that the proper russian 'r' surely may be 'rolled' in the most natural way. That means that if You say 'r' properly you can easily roll it just continuing the sound. If you can't than probably your 'r' is wrong somehow even if it sounds right. How to check it?
Well you may say the words like car, motor, tractor ant then imitate how do they roar and snarl.
То есть:
мотор-р-р-р-р-р-р-р-р-р-р-р р-р-р-р-р-ревёт
трактор-р-р-р-р-р-р-р-р-р-р-р тр-р-р-р-р-рещит
тигр-р-р-р-р-р-р-р-р-р-р-р р-р-р-р-р-рычит
Я помню себя в детстве, и там, где мы жили за окном была стройка, так что примеров для подражания было предостаточно. :D
А вообще, правильное произношение Р для русских тоже не всегда даётся легко. Есть множество взрослых людей (среди которых встречатся даже журналисты на радио и телевидении), которые так и не научились его произносить. Про таких людей говорят, что они картавят. Их Р может быть похоже на французское, немецкое и даже английское, но в любом случае неправильное.
Моему сыну 2.5 года и он ещё не умеет правильно произносить Р.
Например говорит "вуй" вместо "руль". Я его поправляю:
- Не "вуй", а "руль".
А он повторяет:
- Не "вуй", а "вуй".
Вот так вот :D
Herrrrrz und Nierrrrren sind Motorrrrrrrren! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by vy
Русскую "р" я долго произносить не могу (приведенные фразы), получается что-то вроде "ррржжжжжжжжж" (щас специально пытался, хорошо что в офисе рядом со мной никого нет :)).
Немецкую - пожалуйста, на сколько дыхания хватит.
Но никто никогда не говорил мне, что я неправильно выговариваю "р".
По-моему любое Р можно тянуть. И французское, и немецкое, и английское. Во всяком случае я смог бы. Может быть ваше р - нечто среднее между р и л, хотя на слух и не отличается? Л - действительно не тянется, хотя В. Выс.цкий в своих песнях тянул и его. Помните, ".....не допил-л-л-л-л.... и даже недопригубил-л-л-л-л-л... " ? Вообще-то русские тоже по-разному произносят звуки, и не только Р.
Дело и в местных особенностях произношения, и в индивидуальном анатомическом строении. Мне например в детстве трудно давалась Д перед согласными и вместо "днём" я говорил в нос что-то типа "гунём", хотя по звучанию никто не замечал отличия. А теперь чтобы всё-таки выговаривать правильно говорю "дынём" или "дэнём", но всё равно никто разницы не замечает.
Нет, положение языка при произношении "л" совсем другое. Просто при попытке произнести длинный звук "р" язык через короткое время срывается с нужного места и получается другой звук.