Thread: Famous names once and for all

Originally Posted by Doomer

Russians pronounced it with "з" not "z", try to say зибра an you'll notice that "з" sound transforms to "сз"

I do not see anything even close to that.

Originally Posted by Doomer

fusion - ['fjuːʒ(ə)n] with heavy Russian accent could become foosion ['fuːʒ(ə)n]

I doubt. Why? Russian can transliterate the word as "фьюжен" - quite close to the English original.

Originally Posted by Doomer

Per my understanding English "H" sound is pronounced "in a mouth" but Russian "Х" sound comes partially as throat sound
Russians probably can say English "H" but only if concentrate on it very hard.
The root of this problem is there is no difference in Russian language between English "H" and Russian "Х" thus most of the Russians don't even know they speak "H" incorrectly
For example it's "known" that Russian accent consists of: over-accented "r" sounds, incorrect using of "a" sound when the "æ" or "ə" or "ʌ" sound supposed to be used, incorrect using of "s" or "z" sounds when the "θ" or "ð" sounds supposed to be used, muting of voiced consonants at the end and the beginning of words (God becomes Got and Zebra becomes Sebra), incorrect using of "v" sound when the "w" sound supposed to be used and "famous" stretching of vowels when they supposed to sound short
Heavy Russian accent will also include changes of "e" sound to actual Russian "Е" pronunciation, thus "very" becomes "vyery", replacement of letter "U" with "ju" sound to actual Russian "У" with "u" sound in the middle of some words

I don't think the "H" sound is among the "truly Russian accent" sounds I would probably put it along with "l" sound - replaced by Russian "Л" (curve your tongue more to the back when you speak it, it supposed to sound harder and deeper than the "l")
IMHO

In fact, Russian x is pronounced with a help of the back part of the tongue raised to the velar, while the English sound does not involve the tongue.
I don't know what you mean, saying about zebra pronounced sebra. I think Russians usually say men instead of man, fool instead of full, sheep instead of ship (that's what uou mentioned probably). I'm not sure about overpronounced "r". Don't Americans always pronounce the hard L? One more thing: lack of aspiration of p, t, k.

Originally Posted by Anixx

I do not see anything even close to that.

Good for you, but I do

Originally Posted by Anixx

I doubt. Why? Russian can transliterate the word as "фьюжен" - quite close to the English original.

you can be doubtful but it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen to some people. I was saying about heavy accent and I heard some

Originally Posted by Marcus

I don't know what you mean, saying about zebra pronounced sebra.

I picked this up from native English speakers, they were claiming that we have it
I tried to think about it and I have to say that it is partially true

Originally Posted by Marcus

I'm not sure about overpronounced "r".

Maybe the word isn't good. But you gotta agree that Russian "Р" is not the same as English "R". Americans compare it to Spanish "R"

Originally Posted by Marcus

Don't Americans always pronounce the hard L?

It's probably better to ask them

Originally Posted by Marcus

Don't Americans always pronounce the hard L?

I was taught to pronounce the Russian "hard L" as a little bit more dentalized than the English "L" (which is theoretically "alveolar"), but it's quite possible that I dentalize the hard L too much when trying to speak Russian. However, to my ears, the difference between "alveolar" and "dental" is more subtle than "hard" vs. "soft." But it's possible that a Russian with very good ears might think that Americans don't make the "hard L" hard enough?

One thing I can never decide when introducing myself to Russians in speech -- should I say Меня зовут Robert (i.e., with the normal English pronunciation of my name) or Меня зовут Роберт (with the Russified pronunciation)? And what if I'm introducing a friend with an unusual name that doesn't have a "standard" Russian version like Роберт? My last name is a problem, too, because in English the "c" is silent (in contrast to names like "McDonald" or "MacLeod") and it's closer to Мги than Макги (but Макги was the Cyrillicized spelling used on my visa).

... Don't Americans always pronounce the hard L? ..

For 'lieu' I use soft l. Similar to French pronunciation.

Originally Posted by Doomer

So if I write my name as Artyom it will be pronounce something like Артиом
If I write as Artem it will be Артэм

It's a good thing your name isn't Семён -- who knows what they might call you!!

Originally Posted by Doomer

Good for you, but I do

This is nonsense.

Originally Posted by Doomer

you can be doubtful but it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen to some people. I was saying about heavy accent and I heard some

This is possibly not knowing English reading rules rather than "accent".

Originally Posted by Anixx

This is nonsense.

I can play this too - you are saying nonsense
Now what?

Originally Posted by Anixx

This is possibly not knowing English reading rules rather than "accent".

So, following this logic any accent can be set to "not knowing English reading rules" because otherwise why would people say "a" sound when they supposed to say "æ" sound, it's right there in the book, just say it

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

It's a good thing your name isn't Семён -- who knows what they might call you!!

You are naughty guy
I would probably stick to Сеня then or just switch to Simon

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

One thing I can never decide when introducing myself to Russians in speech -- should I say Меня зовут Robert (i.e., with the normal English pronunciation of my name) or Меня зовут Роберт (with the Russified pronunciation)? And what if I'm introducing a friend with an unusual name that doesn't have a "standard" Russian version like Роберт? My last name is a problem, too, because in English the "c" is silent (in contrast to names like "McDonald" or "MacLeod") and it's closer to Мги than Макги (but Макги was the Cyrillicized spelling used on my visa).

I think you should stick to the language rules thus say "Меня зовут Роберт"
Also to say "Меня зовут Robert" might be hard because you need to switch from one language to another and back, I find this particularly hard to do, especially in fast speech

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

My last name is a problem, too, because in English the "c" is silent (in contrast to names like "McDonald" or "MacLeod") and it's closer to Мги than Макги (but Макги was the Cyrillicized spelling used on my visa).

I don't think pronouncing Маги would be any problem to any Russian, however be ready for jokes
But generally if you write is as McGee Russians will say МакГи nobody would even think of possibility of different pronunciation. In fact I haven't even noticed the difference until you write about it, even after watching one particular McGee playing - Timothy McGee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by Doomer

So, following this logic any accent can be set to "not knowing English reading rules" because otherwise why would people say "a" sound when they supposed to say "æ" sound, it's right there in the book, just say it

Because they do not know how to pronounce ae

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

I was taught to pronounce the Russian "hard L" as a little bit more dentalized than the English "L" (which is theoretically "alveolar"), but it's quite possible that I dentalize the hard L too much when trying to speak Russian.

That's correct, the tip of the tongue touches the inner surface of upper teeth when pronouncing the Russian hard "L".
I've never heard your pronunciation, but as to me, I doubt you can "dentalize it too much"

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

However, to my ears, the difference between "alveolar" and "dental" is more subtle than "hard" vs. "soft."

Agree.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

But it's possible that a Russian with very good ears might think that Americans don't make the "hard L" hard enough?

Yes. And one does not need to have "very good ears" for that. When I heard Russian pronunciation of some Americans, I always noticed their "L" sounded "semi-soft" to me when followed by a vowel. A word-final "L" is usually OK, but vowels somehow affect it more.
The reason for that is the Russian "hard L" is velarized which strengthens the contrast with its soft counterpart. And Russians sub-consciously hear it "soft" when it is not velarized. That's what happens to French, German, Spanish, Italian L's: they are neither palatalized nor velarized, which makes Russians perceive them as "soft".

I've just tried to pronounce the velarized Russian "hard L" using the alveolar tongue position, and I'd say it is physically possible, but very difficult. It is hard to keep the correct "spoon-like" shape of the tongue of the velarized L with the alveolar tip position.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

One thing I can never decide when introducing myself to Russians in speech -- should I say Меня зовут Robert (i.e., with the normal English pronunciation of my name) or Меня зовут Роберт (with the Russified pronunciation)? And what if I'm introducing a friend with an unusual name that doesn't have a "standard" Russian version like Роберт? My last name is a problem, too, because in English the "c" is silent (in contrast to names like "McDonald" or "MacLeod") and it's closer to Мги than Макги (but Макги was the Cyrillicized spelling used on my visa).

That is the common rule to localize the pronunciation of your name when introducing to foreigners in their language. It applies to any language I think.
When introducing myself to Americans, I say: "My name is Constantine" with the first syllable stressed, American "o" in "Con" and American "t"'s.

If you pronounce "Меня зовут Robert" to Russians, you make their life harder:
1) they would most likely have difficulties with hearing it correctly unless they are fluent in English;
2) they would definitely have problems with repeating your name.
"Роберт" is a well-known name in Russia, we also have people with this name. But the American pronunication can make it even unrecognizable to the Russian ear: the American "o" sounds almost like Russian "а", and the American retroflex "er" sound is something competely alien and unpronounceable to Russians. If not to say that many Russians hear the American alveolar aspirated "t" as "ч".

As for the "Mc" part, it is just a well-known tradition to Cyrillize it as "Мак".

Don't worry If you had to introduce yourself to a Japanese, you would have to say "Watashi-no namae-wa Robaato desu". And in the case of Chinese, it would be something like "Wo jiao Luo-Bei".

Originally Posted by Marcus
I don't know what you mean, saying about zebra pronounced sebra.

Originally Posted by Doomer

I picked this up from native English speakers, they were claiming that we have it
I tried to think about it and I have to say that it is partially true

That surprizes me too. Rather than arguing pointlessly, I suggest that we find out the reason.

Personally, I would hardly believe that the Russian word-initial "з" can ever sound as "s" to English-speakers.

Here's my explanation:
Yes, we do devoice our word-final voiced consonants:
"коз" and "кос" do sound the same, as well as "без" and "бес", "паз" and "пас" etc.

But as to the word-initial position, Russian voiced consonants are fully voiced, they involve an intense vocal chord activity, more intense than in English. So, it is more likely that a native Russian would hear English "zebra" as "sebra", "zone" as "sone", "zoo" as "soo". The reason is the English word-initial "z" has somewhat "a weaker voicing".
That's why the opposite cannot work: how can English-speakers hear a Russian saying "zebra" as "sebra"?

I can think of two possible explanations:
1. Some native Russians, maybe, do not know how the English "zebra" has to be pronounced and they might think there is a "S" sound in it.
2. Another possibility is a Russian may try imitating a native English pronunciation of this word. The difference between English "S" and "Z" is subtler than in Russian. A Russian hearing an English-speaker pronouncing "zebra" may perceive it as "sebra" and then repeat what he hears.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

One thing I can never decide when introducing myself to Russians in speech -- should I say Меня зовут Robert (i.e., with the normal English pronunciation of my name) or Меня зовут Роберт (with the Russified pronunciation)? And what if I'm introducing a friend with an unusual name that doesn't have a "standard" Russian version like Роберт? My last name is a problem, too, because in English the "c" is silent (in contrast to names like "McDonald" or "MacLeod") and it's closer to Мги than Макги (but Макги was the Cyrillicized spelling used on my visa).

Роберт is probably the closest Russian variant for Robert.
The English language usually ignores the pronunciation of loan-words in the languages they came from.

I believe that mixing different pronunciation patterns in one sentence (and even in one speech) is bad idea. If you speak Russian you should use Russian-adopted variants of proper names. Otherwise it is difficult to switch between patterns both for speaker and auditory.

Originally Posted by Anixx

Because they do not know how to pronounce ae

Right, this called an accent