Thread: Famous names once and for all

There is no ё sound in English. I had to write my name either as Artyom or as Artem. Both are incorrect

Hmmm how interesting! Which did you settle for in the end? It's one of my favourite Russian names, it has a cool sound to it. Of course you could just make people call you "Art" which I think is a nickname for Arthur. In Scandinavia and Germany, the spelling is always Artjom. Assuming the person uses a rolling r, you get exactly the same pronunciation as in Russian.

I got tired of people abusing my name in English and simply adopted an English nickname. English people liked using the nickname, so it wored fine.

When I was travelling in some Russian speaking countries recently I was irritated that they routinely transcribed my name into Cyrillic letters as if it was an English name. So I got to hear the incorrect version of my name in English, pronunced with a Russian accent - that is too much. If I ever go to Russia for any extended period i will insist on the transliteration that I decide!

Originally Posted by Hanna

In Scandinavia and Germany, the spelling is always Artjom. Assuming the person uses a rolling r, you get exactly the same pronunciation as in Russian.

It is unlikely. The t is different in Germanic languages and a soft "t" won't be easy to pronounce for them. Than [j] is an extra sound here.

When I was travelling in some Russian speaking countries recently I was irritated that they routinely transcribed my name into Cyrillic letters as if it was an English name. So I got to hear the incorrect version of my name in English, pronunced with a Russian accent - that is too much. If I ever go to Russia for any extended period i will insist on the transliteration that I decide!

They started your name with дж? In books normal transliterations of Scandinavian names are used.
It's interesting that Russians use letters ю, ё for sounds [y], [œ].

Originally Posted by Marcus

It is unlikely. The t is different in Germanic languages and a soft "t" won't be easy to pronounce for them. Than [j] is an extra sound hear.

You are a perfectionist! It is as close as you can get without being Russian.
I bet you I could pronounce the name "Артём" without you hearing that I am not Russian. There is absolutely no difficulty with any of those letters.
I realise of course that most Germans use the throaty R, and therefore would not pronounce it correctly, but other than that my point holds up. A Finnish person could pronounce it absolutely fine too.

They started your name with дж? In books normal transliterations of Scandinavian names are used. It's interesting that Russians use letters ю, ё for sounds [y], [œ].

No, my name is Johanna, so it's the first letter that is pronounced differently.

I had a think about it a few years back and decided that I prefer the spelling Юханна.
But I noticed that some German women who have the same name, transliterate it as Йоганна.
I think I prefer the x sound rather than the g sound as a replacement for "h".

Which option looks better to you, as native speakers of Russian, in writing?

By the way, how true is it that "Russians can't say "H" CAN you say it, or is it really hard?

When I am back in the UK and pick up my Russian studies again, I'll post something of me reading in Russian.

Originally Posted by Dmitry

In Belarussian Hanna/Anna is Ганна.

Yeah, I heard that and that's pretty!
I think in Ukraine they have this name tool, right?

Originally Posted by Hanna

By the way, how true is it that "Russians can't say "H" CAN you say it, or is it really hard?

Per my understanding English "H" sound is pronounced "in a mouth" but Russian "Х" sound comes partially as throat sound
Russians probably can say English "H" but only if concentrate on it very hard.
The root of this problem is there is no difference in Russian language between English "H" and Russian "Х" thus most of the Russians don't even know they speak "H" incorrectly
For example it's "known" that Russian accent consists of: over-accented "r" sounds, incorrect using of "a" sound when the "æ" or "ə" or "ʌ" sound supposed to be used, incorrect using of "s" or "z" sounds when the "θ" or "ð" sounds supposed to be used, muting of voiced consonants at the end and the beginning of words (God becomes Got and Zebra becomes Sebra), incorrect using of "v" sound when the "w" sound supposed to be used and "famous" stretching of vowels when they supposed to sound short
Heavy Russian accent will also include changes of "e" sound to actual Russian "Е" pronunciation, thus "very" becomes "vyery", replacement of letter "U" with "ju" sound to actual Russian "У" with "u" sound in the middle of some words

I don't think the "H" sound is among the "truly Russian accent" sounds I would probably put it along with "l" sound - replaced by Russian "Л" (curve your tongue more to the back when you speak it, it supposed to sound harder and deeper than the "l")
IMHO

Originally Posted by Doomer

Zebra becomes Sebra

I doubt. This word is pronounced with clear "z" in Russian. I cannot imagine a reasoning that can make a Russian to pronounce it with "s".

replacement of letter "U" with "ju" sound to actual Russian "У" with "u" sound in the middle of some words

Is not it pronounced as "yu" in some words in English like in "fusion"?

Originally Posted by Anixx

I doubt. This word is pronounced with clear "z" in Russian. I cannot imagine a reasoning that can make a Russian to pronounce it with "s".

Russians pronounced it with "з" not "z", try to say зибра an you'll notice that "з" sound transforms to "сз"

Originally Posted by Anixx

Is not it pronounced as "yu" in some words in English like in "fusion"?

fusion - ['fjuːʒ(ə)n] with heavy Russian accent could become foosion ['fuːʒ(ə)n]

Originally Posted by Doomer

Russians pronounced it with "з" not "z", try to say зибра an you'll notice that "з" sound transforms to "сз"

I do not see anything even close to that.

Originally Posted by Doomer

fusion - ['fjuːʒ(ə)n] with heavy Russian accent could become foosion ['fuːʒ(ə)n]

I doubt. Why? Russian can transliterate the word as "фьюжен" - quite close to the English original.

Originally Posted by Doomer

Per my understanding English "H" sound is pronounced "in a mouth" but Russian "Х" sound comes partially as throat sound
Russians probably can say English "H" but only if concentrate on it very hard.
The root of this problem is there is no difference in Russian language between English "H" and Russian "Х" thus most of the Russians don't even know they speak "H" incorrectly
For example it's "known" that Russian accent consists of: over-accented "r" sounds, incorrect using of "a" sound when the "æ" or "ə" or "ʌ" sound supposed to be used, incorrect using of "s" or "z" sounds when the "θ" or "ð" sounds supposed to be used, muting of voiced consonants at the end and the beginning of words (God becomes Got and Zebra becomes Sebra), incorrect using of "v" sound when the "w" sound supposed to be used and "famous" stretching of vowels when they supposed to sound short
Heavy Russian accent will also include changes of "e" sound to actual Russian "Е" pronunciation, thus "very" becomes "vyery", replacement of letter "U" with "ju" sound to actual Russian "У" with "u" sound in the middle of some words

I don't think the "H" sound is among the "truly Russian accent" sounds I would probably put it along with "l" sound - replaced by Russian "Л" (curve your tongue more to the back when you speak it, it supposed to sound harder and deeper than the "l")
IMHO

In fact, Russian x is pronounced with a help of the back part of the tongue raised to the velar, while the English sound does not involve the tongue.
I don't know what you mean, saying about zebra pronounced sebra. I think Russians usually say men instead of man, fool instead of full, sheep instead of ship (that's what uou mentioned probably). I'm not sure about overpronounced "r". Don't Americans always pronounce the hard L? One more thing: lack of aspiration of p, t, k.

Originally Posted by Marcus

I don't know what you mean, saying about zebra pronounced sebra.

I picked this up from native English speakers, they were claiming that we have it
I tried to think about it and I have to say that it is partially true

Originally Posted by Marcus

I'm not sure about overpronounced "r".

Maybe the word isn't good. But you gotta agree that Russian "Р" is not the same as English "R". Americans compare it to Spanish "R"

Originally Posted by Marcus

Don't Americans always pronounce the hard L?

It's probably better to ask them

One thing I can never decide when introducing myself to Russians in speech -- should I say Меня зовут Robert (i.e., with the normal English pronunciation of my name) or Меня зовут Роберт (with the Russified pronunciation)? And what if I'm introducing a friend with an unusual name that doesn't have a "standard" Russian version like Роберт? My last name is a problem, too, because in English the "c" is silent (in contrast to names like "McDonald" or "MacLeod") and it's closer to Мги than Макги (but Макги was the Cyrillicized spelling used on my visa).

Originally Posted by Marcus
I don't know what you mean, saying about zebra pronounced sebra.

Originally Posted by Doomer

I picked this up from native English speakers, they were claiming that we have it
I tried to think about it and I have to say that it is partially true

That surprizes me too. Rather than arguing pointlessly, I suggest that we find out the reason.

Personally, I would hardly believe that the Russian word-initial "з" can ever sound as "s" to English-speakers.

Here's my explanation:
Yes, we do devoice our word-final voiced consonants:
"коз" and "кос" do sound the same, as well as "без" and "бес", "паз" and "пас" etc.

But as to the word-initial position, Russian voiced consonants are fully voiced, they involve an intense vocal chord activity, more intense than in English. So, it is more likely that a native Russian would hear English "zebra" as "sebra", "zone" as "sone", "zoo" as "soo". The reason is the English word-initial "z" has somewhat "a weaker voicing".
That's why the opposite cannot work: how can English-speakers hear a Russian saying "zebra" as "sebra"?

I can think of two possible explanations:
1. Some native Russians, maybe, do not know how the English "zebra" has to be pronounced and they might think there is a "S" sound in it.
2. Another possibility is a Russian may try imitating a native English pronunciation of this word. The difference between English "S" and "Z" is subtler than in Russian. A Russian hearing an English-speaker pronouncing "zebra" may perceive it as "sebra" and then repeat what he hears.

Originally Posted by Marcus

Don't Americans always pronounce the hard L?

I was taught to pronounce the Russian "hard L" as a little bit more dentalized than the English "L" (which is theoretically "alveolar"), but it's quite possible that I dentalize the hard L too much when trying to speak Russian. However, to my ears, the difference between "alveolar" and "dental" is more subtle than "hard" vs. "soft." But it's possible that a Russian with very good ears might think that Americans don't make the "hard L" hard enough?

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

I was taught to pronounce the Russian "hard L" as a little bit more dentalized than the English "L" (which is theoretically "alveolar"), but it's quite possible that I dentalize the hard L too much when trying to speak Russian.

That's correct, the tip of the tongue touches the inner surface of upper teeth when pronouncing the Russian hard "L".
I've never heard your pronunciation, but as to me, I doubt you can "dentalize it too much"

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

However, to my ears, the difference between "alveolar" and "dental" is more subtle than "hard" vs. "soft."

Agree.

Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

But it's possible that a Russian with very good ears might think that Americans don't make the "hard L" hard enough?

Yes. And one does not need to have "very good ears" for that. When I heard Russian pronunciation of some Americans, I always noticed their "L" sounded "semi-soft" to me when followed by a vowel. A word-final "L" is usually OK, but vowels somehow affect it more.
The reason for that is the Russian "hard L" is velarized which strengthens the contrast with its soft counterpart. And Russians sub-consciously hear it "soft" when it is not velarized. That's what happens to French, German, Spanish, Italian L's: they are neither palatalized nor velarized, which makes Russians perceive them as "soft".

I've just tried to pronounce the velarized Russian "hard L" using the alveolar tongue position, and I'd say it is physically possible, but very difficult. It is hard to keep the correct "spoon-like" shape of the tongue of the velarized L with the alveolar tip position.

... Don't Americans always pronounce the hard L? ..

For 'lieu' I use soft l. Similar to French pronunciation.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Which option looks better to you, as native speakers of Russian, in writing?

I like Ханна more

Originally Posted by Hanna

Hmmm how interesting! Which did you settle for in the end?

I stopped on Artem and I don't care how others pronounce it anymore

Originally Posted by Hanna

Of course you could just make people call you "Art"

Yeah, people tried to do that but I think I'm not that big of a masterpiece to be called "art"