Thread: English Accent

Originally Posted by Zaya

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

this is Jason Bourne's passport

gRomoZeka, ты подняла мне настроение на весь день.
You made my day. ))

Haha, "Ащьф" nice name.... Maybe he's from some very obscure ethnic minority.... Hollywood is always right, you know....
And their portrayls of Russians are 100% accurate and representative of normal Russian people....

3) Russian vowels are sometimes "two for the price of one". The pronunciation by native speakers often sounds like one vowel is in fact two.

Originally Posted by iti-ogo

Yes, this is the characteristic sign of Western European accent in Russian, pronouncing two vowels instead one (like миэниа instead of меня). This is indeed a problem as it really makes speech more difficult to understand. BTW Russian Е, Ё, Ю, Я never do sound as two vowels though sometimes as consonant й + vowel. Are you sure you can hear the difference between soft and hard consonants? Гол and голь, кров and кровь? Those "two-sound letters" make consonants soft, that is all.

@Iti-ogo, It's embarrasing but true.... don't know if I have REALLY, FULLY understood the role of "ь".... And "ъ" is definitely a mystery to me but it is so unusual that I haven't bothered about it.

"Гол and голь, кров and кровь?" Hmm... yeah, I don't know what the first two mean, but I'd assume that "funny, double vowel" is in голь? But is there really a difference between кров and кровь?

I definitely have a good "feel" for when "ь" is needed in spelling. But I still have the impression that it is not a "real" letter. I try to listen to a native recording of ALL new words that I learn. From my experience with learning English I never trust spelling as a guide for pronouncation anyway! In English you can't know for sure how to pronounce a word until you have heard it.

Yeah, I can't explain the challenges of Russian vowels very well. It is not at all impossible for me to prononce them right, but to make it sound similar to how a native speaker would pronounce it, I have to FOCUS. The "sheep trick" was good.

Gromozeka is right - I am not advanced enough to worry about accents yet.
But I don't want to form any bad habits that will be hard to break later on.
So, I hereby pledge to upload something of me reading in Russian within.... 2 months.

I have heard from Scandinavians who speak decent Russian that Russian-speaking people almost immediately assume that they must be Baltic. So I would like to know: How does a typical Baltic accent sound? Ugly or nice? What are the tell-tale signs? (So I can AVOID them - I don't want to be mistaken for a Baltic person if I can avoid it.).

That said, the Balts are unbelieveably good at Russian! After all, Estonian in particular is completely different from Russian... I have no idea how Russian is/was taught there, but the programme must be pretty efficient. The Russian teacher at my school was an Estonian but I don't remember any accent. (Worst teacher I ever had, but he was probably the only person in that area who could speak fully fluent Russian.).

Originally Posted by Johanna

It's embarrasing but true.... don't know if I have REALLY, FULLY understood the role of "ь".... And "ъ" is definitely a mystery to me but it is so unusual that I haven't bothered about it.

I know exactly what you mean on this point. Letters like P seem pretty straightforward, you just say them like words like "Pew" if they have a ь afterwards; but I just cannot pronounce words like теперь - the R sound is too subtle (especially considering how different our Rs sound).

There doesn't seem to be any consistent phonetical rule relating to ь...

Originally Posted by Johanna

I have heard from Scandinavians who speak decent Russian that Russian-speaking people almost immediately assume that they must be Baltic. So I would like to know: How does a typical Baltic accent sound? Ugly or nice? What are the tell-tale signs? (So I can AVOID them - I don't want to be mistaken for a Baltic person if I can avoid it.).

Yes, it's true. People will probably think that a Scandinavian person is from Baltic states (if his/her Russian is any good), or maybe Finnish. Why would you prefer not to sound 'Baltic'? I think it hard to do, since people tend to bring anything unknown to something they know (and Scandinavian accent is relatively rare).

Well, back to your question.

Russians usually do not distinguish Lettish, Estonian and Latvians accents, they just call them Baltic accents (though people who know any of these languages say that these accents are slightly different). So I'll talk about 'Baltic' accent in general (it's an Estonian accent, probably) and about an older generation, since many young people in Baltic states are not so good in Russian anymore.

First, it's very soft, sometimes barely noticable, but readily recognized as 'Baltic'. Many people think that it sounds sophisticated (unlike, say, Caucasian accents). The possible reason is a Soviet stereotype about Baltic republics, as more wealthy, more European, etc. (which was basicaly true. The level of life there was higher than in your average Russian town).

Some of the signs of a Baltic accent are:
- "ы"-sound sounds closer to "и"
- carefully enunciated and thus exaggerated "ч", "ш", "щ"
- soft consonants (including "ч"/"щ") often sound hard
- voiced consonants sometimes sound voiceless
- a peculiar intonation
ALso it's worth mentioning, that despite the accent their Russian was often impeccable.

Addendum
1.
Song by Анне Вески (1985), Estonian. She was/is one of the popular singers, who had Baltic accent.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn3tqsjSjkg
Interview with Raimonds Pauls (Lett), who has a slightly stronger accent:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GpxsCaULtc
But you won't probably notice their accents... They are very slight.

2.
Someone asked "Do you like a Baltic accent?":
http://otvet.mail.ru/question/960517/
9 "yeses" and 1 "no".

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Why would you prefer not to sound 'Baltic'? I think it hard to do, since people tend to bring anything unknown to something they know (and Scandinavian accent is relatively rare).

Well, I don't want to sound like them because I'm not one of them... And if they thought I was Baltic they'd think my standard of Russian was shockingly bad...
Plus the Baltic states are having a vendetta against Russia for the last two decades, almost.

Song by Анне Вески (1985), Estonian. She was/is one of the popular singers, who had Baltic accent.:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn3tqsjSjkg

Haha, 1980s exercise routine. You are right, I can't hear the accent. She is very talented.

Interview with Raimonds Pauls (Lett), who has a slightly stronger accent:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GpxsCaULtc

I can hear the accent but he seems to be 100% fluent.
Basically he's dropped all the sounds that are tricky to pronounce, and he's got a slightly different intonation. Actually, I think a Swedish person who was fluent and had a bit of practice might sound EXACTLY like that.

Thanks, it explains a lot.
Unfortunately I don't think I can avoid this type of accent - I'll probably have it whether I want to or not.... Wait and see... Will upload something shortly.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Someone asked "Do you like a Baltic accent?":
http://otvet.mail.ru/question/960517/
9 "yeses" and 1 "no".

Interesting.

Originally Posted by Johanna

But is there really a difference between кров and кровь?

Yes, a big one.

I definitely have a good "feel" for when "ь" is needed in spelling. But I still have the impression that it is not a "real" letter.

No, you're wrong here. What can be called "not a real letter", more or less, is ъ; but not ь. It definitely changes the sound of a consonant, always.

Originally Posted by Johanna

"Гол and голь, кров and кровь?" Hmm... yeah, I don't know what the first two mean, but I'd assume that "funny, double vowel" is in голь? But is there really a difference between кров and кровь?

No, no, no! There is no double vowel in "голь" (which is derived from "голый" -- "naked" and means poor people; there are many other words with similar meaning, like "голытьба", "сброд", "чернь" -- they have derogatory connotations and correspond to English 'rabble', 'riffraff'). it-ogo meant that many foreigners whose native languages do not include soft consonant can't ponounce them and replace them with и/й + the vowel (e.g, they would pronounce "тебя" [tjebja] instead of [т'иб'а] -- the [t'] and [b'] sounds are both soft. So the phrase "Я тебя люблю" -- "I love you" can sound very funny. )

The "мягкий знак" "Ь" letter makes the preceding consonant soft/wet ("мягкий" = soft). The "твёрдый знак" Ъ is indeed more or less unimportant, it is mostly used in orthography to show that the preceding consonant is hard ("твёрдый" = hard) and there are some other functions but I don't remember them.

So, "голь" should be read [гол'/gol'] -- with a soft [l], in "гол" the [l] sound is hard -- [gol] ("гол" comes from the English sports term "goal" as in "goalkeep", "to score a goal". Except that in English you do have a double vowel or diphthong. There are no diphthongs in Russian.

The same goes for "кров" and "кровь" -- they should be read [кроф] and [крофь/кроф']. The end consonant always becomes voiceless and in "кровь" the [f] sound is soft.

I don't think it's that difficult to learn to pronounce soft consonants but it's always better to have a teacher/tutor who can help you there.

It seems that the soft consonant are indicated by [j] in the International Phonetic Alphabet which is perhaps what confuses foreigners learning Russian. For ex., the name "Катя" will be transcribed as "Katja" which is NOT the right way of pronouncing it.

This is worrying. I will look into it..

I think I need to consider uploading some read-out text or something pretty soon, to get your feedback.

This site has a main part as you know, and I think it was there that I went through a whole "tutorial" about soft sign and how it affects pronounciation. Afterwards I felt reasonably confident that I had grasped it --- but it is a very strange concept if you are not used to it...

Originally Posted by Johanna

but it is a very strange concept if you are not used to it...

Well... perhaps I could be totally wrong here, but when you add the "-y" in English, it somewhat softens the last consonant, similar to the effect the soft sign "ь" has in Russian. For example:

dust - dusty
don - donny
deb - debby
...

Does that make sense?

Crocodile, Yeah it does! That's a good example. Thanks. This site in its' main section (away from the forum) has an extensive tutorial about soft sign.

I DO understand the concept that the tongue is placed at a different location at the back of the mouth when you prounouce a consonant with soft sig. I had missed the effect that it has on consonants in the less common combinations, like with B. Also I don't think I had read about the impact it has on the VOWELS.

The phenomenon that I was originally referring to is that Russian vowels often have a faint hing of another vowel in the vowel that is being used (at least that's how it seems to me). This is one of the most obvious signs of a Russian accent (plus a few other languages)

Really, there is no cure for this other than for me to upload a recording of me reading. That way you can tell me what mistakes I make before I get used to bad habits. I will do it quite soon.

Originally Posted by Johanna

The phenomenon that I was originally referring to is that Russian vowels often have a faint hing of another vowel in the vowel that is being used (at least that's how it seems to me). This is one of the most obvious signs of a Russian accent (plus a few other languages)

This applies to the unstressed vowels. As fo the Croc's example, historically all softness and hardness signs were pronounced. 'ь' meant an extremely short vowel sounding in between of 'i' and 'e'.

Well, it is a VERY cool sounding and elegant language for sure.

It's the Mount Everest of European languages.

I think I am "hooked" though!

Originally Posted by starrysky

The "твёрдый знак" Ъ is indeed more or less unimportant, it is mostly used in orthography to show that the preceding consonant is hard ("твёрдый" = hard) and there are some other functions but I don't remember them.

The difference is in sound of suсceeding vowel - подъехать - [pɐdjɛxətʲ], подехать (no such word) - [pɐdʲɛxətʲ]
In the second case 'd' is soft and in the first there is 'j' sound before ɛ

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Hm, Lundgren is not so bad. Unfortunately, I can't remember any other examples right now..

Yes Dolf Lundgren is Swedish and not typical actor. He used to be a doorman at a night club in Sydney, called "Jamison Street". I used to see him there at the door, as I was a lifetime member there. He was a big guy but always nice. I'm not surprized that his accent was better than, say, Rodger Moore's.

Originally Posted by starrysky

The same goes for "кров" and "кровь" -- they should be read [кроф] and [крофь/кроф']. The end consonant always becomes voiceless and in "кровь" the [f] sound is soft.

I have this dictionary that pronounces these two. They both end in "f" but кровь has a more forceful and drawn out ending, like blowing more air through your lips.

Mr Bean speaks russian =))))))

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4JrYrNa1Kw

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Ура, I've found a couple of examples.

I liked the way actors spoke Russian (a lot of Russian) in "BIRTHDAY GIRL"/"Именинница". For people who obviously just learned all these phrases without really understanding them they were good (not all the time, of course ).
Check it (they speak Russian in the beginning, and then around 3:25)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMVjloGt00g

I just watched this film today. I am curious is anyone else who watched this film, could ALWAYS understand what they say in Russian? For me it was not so easy at times, not very clear. But I like this way much better, than in many films that I saw.

Also did anyone see this older film "Moscow on the Hudson", with Robin Williams? He was speaking Russian in the film. How did you find it?

Sorry, if this is off topic, I haven't heard so many English people trying to speak Russian, but when I did, it was quite hard for me to make out all words, but didn't bother me. As well as if I hear English people speaking Polish.

Милена

What sounds most harsh to a Russian ear is when foreigners pronounce middle "е", "я", "ё" the same way as in "yes", "yay", "yolk", etc. For example, they try to pronounce "принесёт" as "приньесьёт" and so on. There is no "ь" there, only soft sounding consonants and the following vowels are also slightly softer because of that. Speaking about English and British English, in particular, the intonation and rhythm greatly contribute to your sounding foreign. In English it is normal to speed up or slow down your speech on a micro scale to make word stresses occur at equal intervals. Which is not the case with Russian language. Russian is closer to Italian in this respect. It is more melodically oriented than rhythmically oriented, so to speak. Also, excessive aspiration and muscular tension is not good for you when you speak Russian. Unless you are agitated, of course.

Originally Posted by lenochka1120

I just watched this film today. I am curious is anyone else who watched this film, could ALWAYS understand what they say in Russian? For me it was not so easy at times, not very clear. But I like this way much better, than in many films that I saw.

It's awful. The very first words by the link I heard as 'тыпьярдык' for four times, but then it appeared to be 'ты пьервый' as and attempt to say 'ты первый'.
What is subtitled '50 thousands' I hear as 'поспесайзед тысяц' no more no less.
'You scared me with the kettle' at 1:51 is unintelligible for me.

Swedish accent is definitely NOT baltic

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08hS03c- ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0Oq2hcg ... re=related