Thread: щ and шь

Щ никогда не произносится как шч.
В словах в типа "вещий", "отыщет" Щ произносится скорее как [вещ-щий], [отыщ-щет], но никак не ШЧ.
Насколько я знаю, непереводимые русские слова и фамилии, содержащие Щ пишутся на английском через SHCH. Например:
Щи - Shchi
Тищенко (фамилия) - Tishchenko.
Однако это вовсе НЕ значит, что русские произносят их как шч. Просто shch это наиболее подходящие латинские буквы чтобы передать этот звук для носителей английского языка. В немецком, например, вообще используется 7 букв (schtsch) вместо одной русской Щ.
Звук щ однородный и произносится как очень мягкое щ, примерно так, как описал в своем посте НА.
Мягкий знак после буквы Ш не смягчает звук ш, а используется для других целей. В частности, чтобы определить род существительных.
ШЬ звучит точно также как Ш, но это не значит, что слова, которые пишутся через ШЬ можно писать через Ш.

Originally Posted by jz12

What's the real difference in pronunciation between щ and шь?

for one I don't think you'll find many words with "шь" in them in Russian, this combination is rather rare, I, for one, can't really think of a single one off the top of my head (maybe my spelling ain't that good though). But if I were to read "щ" and "шь" in isolation, which I just did incidentally, they'd come out exactly the same (and they just did too), so don't sweat over it, there's no real difference pronounciationwise and you just might ignore those who tell you otherwise. (I'm not being entirely serious here, just wanted to end this comment with a little rhyme)

http://vysotsky.russian.ru/songs/m3u.php?play=67005

Как ныне сбирается вещий Олег
Щита прибивать на ворота,
Как вдруг подбегает к нему человек
И ну шепелявить чего-то.

"Эх, князь, — говорит ни с того ни с сего, —
Ведь примешь ты смерть от коня своего!"

Ну только собрался идти он на вы —
Отмщать неразумным хазарам,
Как вдруг прибежали седые волхвы,
К тому же разя перегаром.

И говорят ни с того ни с сего,
Что примет он смерть от коня своего.

"Да кто ж вы такие, откуда взялись?! —
Дружина взялась за нагайки. —
Напился, старик, так иди похмелись,
И неча рассказывать байки

И говорить ни с того ни с сего,
Что примет он смерть от коня своего!"

Ну, в общем, они не сносили голов —
Шутить не могите с князьями!
И долго дружина топтала волхвов
Своими гнедыми конями:

Ишь, говорят ни с того ни с сего,
Что примет он смерть от коня своего!

А вещий Олег свою линию гнул,
Да так, что никто и не пикнул.
Он только однажды волхвов помянул,
И то саркастически хмыкнул:

Ну надо ж болтать ни с того ни с сего,
Что примет он смерть от коня своего!

"А вот он, мой конь, — на века опочил,
Один только череп остался!.."
Олег преспокойно стопу возложил —
И тут же на месте скончался:

Злая гадюка кусила его —
И принял он смерть от коня своего.

...Каждый волхвов покарать норовит,
А нет бы — послушаться, правда?
Олег бы послушал — ещё один щит
Прибил бы к вратам Цареграда.

Волхвы-то сказали с того и с сего,
Что примет он смерть от коня своего!

Originally Posted by igorfa100

Originally Posted by jz12

What's the real difference in pronunciation between щ and шь?

for one I don't think you'll find many words with "шь" in them in Russian, this combination is rather rare, I, for one, can't really think of a single one off the top of my head (maybe my spelling ain't that good though).

Rather rare? Let's see:
-All the Russian verbs in 2-nd person singular:
читаешь (you read), пишешь (you write), думаешь (you think), спишь (you sleep), носишь (you carry), живёшь (you live), ...
-A lot of feminine nouns like мышь (mouse), вошь (louse), брошь (brooch), тишь (silence, calm), ...
-Some particles and adverbs as лишь (only), наотмашь (used in бить наотмашь),
-Sometimes ь after ш is used as a separation sign, as in forms of the verb шить (to sew): шью, шьёшь, шьёт etc.

Enough examples, though...

Originally Posted by igorfa100

But if I were to read "щ" and "шь" in isolation, which I just did incidentally, they'd come out exactly the same (and they just did too), so don't sweat over it, there's no real difference pronounciationwise and you just might ignore those who tell you otherwise. (I'm not being entirely serious here, just wanted to end this comment with a little rhyme)

In pronunciation there is no difference between Ш and ШЬ (крыш and мышь make a rhyme). The soft sign phonetically does nothing after the sibilants (Ш, Ж, Ч, Щ).
But there is a difference between Ш or ШЬ (from the one hand) and Щ or ЩЬ (from the other hand). Thus, лещ and брешь make no rhyme, but лещ and вещь do make a rhyme.

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

Originally Posted by igorfa100

Originally Posted by jz12

What's the real difference in pronunciation between щ and шь?

for one I don't think you'll find many words with "шь" in them in Russian, this combination is rather rare, I, for one, can't really think of a single one off the top of my head (maybe my spelling ain't that good though).

Rather rare? Let's see:
-All the Russian verbs in 2-nd person singular:
читаешь (you read), пишешь (you write), думаешь (you think), спишь (you sleep), носишь (you carry), живёшь (you live), ...
-A lot of feminine nouns like мышь (mouse), вошь (louse), брошь (brooch), тишь (silence, calm), ...
-Some particles and adverbs as лишь (only), наотмашь (used in бить наотмашь),
-Sometimes ь after ш is used as a separation sign, as in forms of the verb шить (to sew): шью, шьёшь, шьёт etc.

Enough examples, though...

Originally Posted by igorfa100

But if I were to read "щ" and "шь" in isolation, which I just did incidentally, they'd come out exactly the same (and they just did too), so don't sweat over it, there's no real difference pronounciationwise and you just might ignore those who tell you otherwise. (I'm not being entirely serious here, just wanted to end this comment with a little rhyme)

In pronunciation there is no difference between Ш and ШЬ (крыш and мышь make a rhyme). The soft sign phonetically does nothing after the sibilants (Ш, Ж, Ч, Щ).
But there is a difference between Ш or ШЬ (from the one hand) and Щ or ЩЬ (from the other hand). Thus, лещ and брешь make no rhyme, but лещ and вещь do make a rhyme.

Exactly.

Igorfa100, are you a native Russian speaker? If not you shouldn't be dishing out such incorrect advice.

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

Rather rare? Let's see:
-All the Russian verbs in 2-nd person singular:
читаешь (you read), пишешь (you write), думаешь (you think), спишь (you sleep), носишь (you carry), живёшь (you live), ...
-A lot of feminine nouns like мышь (mouse), вошь (louse), брошь (brooch), тишь (silence, calm), ...
-Some particles and adverbs as лишь (only), наотмашь (used in бить наотмашь),
-Sometimes ь after ш is used as a separation sign, as in forms of the verb шить (to sew): шью, шьёшь, шьёт etc.

Enough examples, though...

you mean those, in the final position it seems the ь doesn't affect the pronounciation of the preceding ш in any way whatsover so that носишь and носишь are pronounced exactly the same. In my previous post I was referring rather to the pronounication of a soft ш in principle and in priciple a soft ш in Russian is indicated with a щ which is mighty different from the way Ukrainian say щ as was already pointed out int his thread. so in final positions after ш the ь is to be ingnored as if it wasn't there. I think it's some sort of a traditional spelling that managed to escape the communist spelling purges of the early 1920's (before that there was a whole bunch of letters half of which were either totally silent or prounounced exactly the same as some other letters so those spelling purges were a good thing imho)

now as a separation sign I'd say before ш it can be replaced with the ъ with little effect on the pronounciation, at least this applies to the area that I'm from (Smolensk)

Bottom line - in real words ш always remains "hard" so that in words like шьеш it's not the preceding ш that gets affected by the ь but rather the е that follows which in this case is pronounced the same as when you read the alphabet out loud.

Originally Posted by TATY

Igorfa100, are you a native Russian speaker? If not you shouldn't be dishing out such incorrect advice.

Yes, I am a native speaker of Russian and my previous post was an observation rather than advice, as I indicated there I simply tried to say шь and щ out loud and found that when I did, they sounded the same. I also pointed out that I was pronouncing them in isolation and yes I clean forgot about all those verb forms ending in шь because honestly when I'm typing in Russian (I haven't had to write in over 8 years) I simply omit those ь's altogether, letting the spellchekcer take care of them.

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

In pronunciation there is no difference between Ш and ШЬ (крыш and мышь make a rhyme). The soft sign phonetically does nothing after the sibilants (Ш, Ж, Ч, Щ).
But there is a difference between Ш or ШЬ (from the one hand) and Щ or ЩЬ (from the other hand). Thus, лещ and брешь make no rhyme, but лещ and вещь do make a rhyme.

didn't see this one the first time around. you hit the nail on the head, spot on etc. the conclusion is that ш always remains ш in Russian. if there ever was any variance in pronounciation between ш and шь it sure seems to have died out centuries ago. guess your post pretty much wraps up the whole thread.

Originally Posted by igorfa100

Originally Posted by Боб Уайтман

In pronunciation there is no difference between Ш and ШЬ (крыш and мышь make a rhyme). The soft sign phonetically does nothing after the sibilants (Ш, Ж, Ч, Щ).
But there is a difference between Ш or ШЬ (from the one hand) and Щ or ЩЬ (from the other hand). Thus, лещ and брешь make no rhyme, but лещ and вещь do make a rhyme.

didn't see this one the first time around. you hit the nail on the head, spot on etc. the conclusion is that ш always remains ш in Russian. if there ever was any variance in pronounciation between ш and шь it sure seems to have died out centuries ago. guess your post pretty much wraps up the whole thread.

Basically Ш is one of the consonants that is never palatalised in Russian, therefore:

шя sounds like ша
ше sounds like шэ
шю sounds like шу
шё sounds like шо
ши sounds like шы
шь sounds like ш


On the otherhand Щ is ALWAYS palatalised in Russian, therefore:

ща - щя
щэ - ще
щу - щю
що - щё
щы - щи

I find it quite odd that a native speaker cannot "think of a word with шь in it" when I, a learner of only 2 years have at leat 5 instantly come to me. Then there is the fact that all verbs end шь in the Ты form.

That's like an English person saying "I can't think of a work off the top of my head with th in it"

Ну вашще!!
You all guys are such linguists! Where only do you find all that stuff!!?
YOU ALL SHOULD TEACH RUSSIAN!!

Originally Posted by TATY

I find it quite odd that a native speaker cannot "think of a word with шь in it" when I, a learner of only 2 years have at leat 5 instantly come to me. Then there is the fact that all verbs end шь in the Ты form.

That's like an English person saying "I can't think of a work off the top of my head with th in it"

Well, to me, a native Russian speaker, there is a huge difference.

Russian spelling is quite close to pronunciation - basically you can read printed unknown words and
you'll be easily understood over the phone, with relatively few exceptions.

English is quite different - you can pronounce "read" in 2 ways depending on the context.
There no rule how to pronounce cow, row, now, bow, tow...
etc. etc.

As the time goes by, Russian pronunciation may drift away from spelling, which is synchronized from time to time.
So, because the letter "ь" in "шь" is spelled but never pronounced, it may be viewed by many as an unnecessary complication.
On the other hand, "th" is at least always pronounced - but you cannot tell how by spelling only.

Originally Posted by HA

Originally Posted by TATY

I find it quite odd that a native speaker cannot "think of a word with шь in it" when I, a learner of only 2 years have at leat 5 instantly come to me. Then there is the fact that all verbs end шь in the Ты form.

That's like an English person saying "I can't think of a work off the top of my head with th in it"

Well, to me, a native Russian speaker, there is a huge difference.

Russian spelling is quite close to pronunciation - basically you can read printed unknown words and
you'll be easily understood over the phone, with relatively few exceptions.

English is quite different - you can pronounce "read" in 2 ways depending on the context.
There no rule how to pronounce cow, row, now, bow, tow...
etc. etc.

As the time goes by, Russian pronunciation may drift away from spelling, which is synchronized from time to time.
So, because the letter "ь" in "шь" is spelled but never pronounced, it may be viewed by many as an unnecessary complication.
On the other hand, "th" is at least always pronounced - but you cannot tell how by spelling only.

You didn't get my point. All I why saying was 'th' is a common combination of letters in English, like шь is a common combination of letters in Russian.

you did not get my point either, that's cultural differences for you. Most Russians feel that spelling should more or less match pronunciation, to the the point of adding new letters and removing obsolete ones.
That's what's wrong with "шь": it's an impossible combination of sounds, although a common
combination of letters.

That's why your analogy, which I understood the first time all right, did not feel right to me. You compared an unpronounceable combination of letters to a pronounceable one, which might be all the same
to you, but not to me.

When you say [sh] in a word like "she" your tongue is toward the front of your mouth. When you say Ш your tongue is toward the back of your mouth. The sound is "darker". Say "she" and repeat it, pullling your tongue further back into the mouth. You may need to widen the opening of the mouth as you do this.

Maybe some Russian could put up an audiofile of защищающиеся or защищаешь!
защищаю - каша
шуп or щупать

or compare the words щит and *шит. (masc. short form passive, imperfective unfortunately)

Originally Posted by chaika

When you say [sh] in a word like "she" your tongue is toward the front of your mouth. When you say Ш your tongue is toward the back of your mouth.

definitely not mine

Just trust the Truth!

Otherwise you don't speak correctly.

Originally Posted by HA

Originally Posted by chaika

When you say [sh] in a word like "she" your tongue is toward the front of your mouth. When you say Ш your tongue is toward the back of your mouth.

definitely not mine

This is true. English Sh is not the same as Russian Ш.

Originally Posted by HA

you did not get my point either, that's cultural differences for you. Most Russians feel that spelling should more or less match pronunciation, to the the point of adding new letters and removing obsolete ones.
That's what's wrong with "шь": it's an impossible combination of sounds, although a common
combination of letters.

That's why your analogy, which I understood the first time all right, did not feel right to me. You compared an unpronounceable combination of letters to a pronounceable one, which might be all the same
to you, but not to me.

OK then how about "I can't thing of a single English word with gh in it."

Originally Posted by chaika

When you say Ш your tongue is toward the back of your mouth. The sound is "darker". Say "she" and repeat it, pullling your tongue further back into the mouth. You may need to widen the opening of the mouth as you do this.

No way. Where did you get that? I almost threw up trying to follow this instruction.

Originally Posted by TATY

I find it quite odd that a native speaker cannot "think of a word with шь in it" when I, a learner of only 2 years have at leat 5 instantly come to me. Then there is the fact that all verbs end шь in the Ты form.

That's like an English person saying "I can't think of a work off the top of my head with th in it"

it's because I'm a native speaker rather than a native writer, I am literate in the sense that I can read but I've always been awfull at spelling and punctuation (Russian's got some strickt rules about where commas are supposed to go in a sentence)I always have a tendency in spell words the way I hear them in Russian. It's somewhat different with English because in english there are so many exceptions that for a large number of words you simply have to know the exact spelling, otherwise you might not even be able to read them. As for thinking of words with specific letter combinations off the top of one's head, I guess if you were to look hard enough you'd probably be able to find a couple of such letter sequences which do occur in English regularly but which some natives speakers might have difficulty remembering.

Originally Posted by TATY

Originally Posted by HA

you did not get my point either, that's cultural differences for you. Most Russians feel that spelling should more or less match pronunciation, to the the point of adding new letters and removing obsolete ones.
That's what's wrong with "шь": it's an impossible combination of sounds, although a common
combination of letters.

That's why your analogy, which I understood the first time all right, did not feel right to me. You compared an unpronounceable combination of letters to a pronounceable one, which might be all the same
to you, but not to me.

OK then how about "I can't thing of a single English word with gh in it."

makes perfect sence to me