Thread: Где

Also, to add a historical note.

The question words in Slavic. There really did used to be a vowel there after the к and г. It was called a jer, and was either an uh-sound like schwa and spelled ъ or an ih-sound, spelled ь. We know this from ancient manuscripts, where we find written къто.

The question words were either kъ+ word or kь+ word. Examples
къто who
къгда when
къде where
кънда where to (куда); I'm not sure how to represent this nasal vowel see analog in Polish.
кьто what (early in Slavic before the breakup ki became ch, so all Slavic languages have Ч there)

как how is the only one that doesn't seem to quite fit. Any Slavic language historians reading this?

Oh, here you go. Just googled къто and came up with the tale of Boris and Gleb, a good old favorite I read in grad school. Complete with all the jers everywhere. http://avorhist.narod.ru/source/boris.html

This isn't really real, because, as unreadable as it is, it is written in modern Russian style - no "i", no jat' no jus, etc. Do your own search on къто and read the real Old Church Slavonic literature - enjoy!

Well, here's what I came up after some listening and thinking.

There definitely are some additional sounds between consonants and after the last consonant in a word, especially when the consonants are voiced.

The question is, whether to treat them as phonemes or just as transition noises.

Standard Russian, as taught in Soviet schools in '70s, obviously didn't treat them as phonemes. Many individuals, as well as many dialects, do (e. g. in folk songs you can run into something like "в горнице свечи тепылютыся" with those ы-like noises sung just like any vowel).

So, it's perfectly all right to let some very reducted semi-vowel appear between consonants. Many native speakers just won't hear it, and others won't mind. Just see to it that it's really short, faint, and absolutely reducted.

Just my .02 of course.

Originally Posted by JJ

Originally Posted by Rtyom

I say лихко. With 'е' it sounds unnatural.

MGIMO finished? :) Are you from Moscow or from some of "ah-speaking" regions? The "лихко" in the Middle Ural, I mean, sounds a bit wierd.

I'm not far from Moscow (not MGIMO finished though :) and "лихко" sounds weired to me as well.

Originally Posted by chaika

adoc, I meant speech-wise, not heredity. When you move to live in a foreign country, you native accent takes a hit. In college I knew a Greek guy who after a year in the US said he was losing his native language. I have often heard people talk about going back to visit the family in Moscow or somewhere and have them comment on their American accent. That's what I meant by "Americanized."

I've heard people saying that, but it doesn't mean jack. It's their nostalgia or whatever insecurity/personal problems talking. Noone loses their native accent after let's say 15. Noone acquires american accent just like that either. It is physically impossible. How many Russians do you know speaking English without an accent, even having lived in the US for many years? Moreover, an average "Americanized Russian" has a lot better command of Russian than an average "native speaker" for a single stupid reason: he is on average better educated.

FYI, most of the Americanized Russians have difficulties letting it go. This is the reason they whine about forgetting Russian and all this nonsense. American accent? Ha-ha fifteen times. I, for one, would gladly exchange my perfect Russian and imperfect English for perfect English and imperfect French. But there is no way.

The discussion about лехко and лихко (pronunciation of "легко") won't take you anywhere, guys. You just start bickering for nothing. Russian vowels, unlike, e.g. Ukrainian, Czech or Polish are not pronounced clearly (in a more or less standard Russian pronunciation) in an unaccented position, that's why you learn at school "проверочные слова", especially for vowels: Е/И А/О.

The first vowel in "легко" is a mixture (an unclear sound) between Е and И. There's also an international transcription symbol for that, which I can't locate. Pronouncing "лEхко" is also OK, it's just highlighting the unclear sound, as well as "лИхко", as long as you spell it with an Е, no-one should say you're illiterate. That's why I think, it's just useless to discuss.

Remember the song "Пусть бегут неуклюже...". If you forgot, they sing "бИгут" ("у" is accented). Has anyone said the song is not pronounced in correct Russian?

Don't put pronunciation in normal speech on the same footing as pronunciation in songs.

Originally Posted by adoc

Originally Posted by chaika

adoc, I meant speech-wise, not heredity. When you move to live in a foreign country, you native accent takes a hit. In college I knew a Greek guy who after a year in the US said he was losing his native language. I have often heard people talk about going back to visit the family in Moscow or somewhere and have them comment on their American accent. That's what I meant by "Americanized."

I've heard people saying that, but it doesn't mean jack. It's their nostalgia or whatever insecurity/personal problems talking. Noone loses their native accent after let's say 15. Noone acquires american accent just like that either. It is physically impossible. How many Russians do you know speaking English without an accent, even having lived in the US for many years? Moreover, an average "Americanized Russian" has a lot better command of Russian than an average "native speaker" for a single stupid reason: he is on average better educated.

FYI, most of the Americanized Russians have difficulties letting it go. This is the reason they whine about forgetting Russian and all this nonsense. American accent? Ha-ha fifteen times. I, for one, would gladly exchange my perfect Russian and imperfect English for perfect English and imperfect French. But there is no way.

This is not quite true; it is possible to "lose" the proper Russian accent.
I knew several people who spoke like that; without exception they were wives of Americans, who have lived in the US for 15+ years without communicating with other expatriates or visiting home (it was in the early 90's, when suddenly there were a lot of jobs in the former Soviet Union for people like that so they came back). The accent was not strong but definitely noticeable, mostly in the intonation patterns, and in the lack of vowel reduction (i.e. overpronouncing).

Also, once I learned how to pronounce English 'p' and 'k', I noticed myself putting those sounds into Russian words. .

Yet another issue is a particular (slight) accent, found in some old expatriate communities in the US (usually in older ppl who left, say, before 1985 and their American-born descendants). These people are mostly Jewish, and probably had the accent even back home.

And of course all expatriates mix the English words and Russian grammar a lot

Originally Posted by laxxy

This is not quite true; it is possible to "lose" the proper Russian accent.
I knew several people who spoke like that; without exception they were wives of Americans, who have lived in the US for 15+ years without communicating with other expatriates or visiting home (it was in the early 90's, when suddenly there were a lot of jobs in the former Soviet Union for people like that so they came back). The accent was not strong but definitely noticeable, mostly in the intonation patterns, and in the lack of vowel reduction (i.e. overpronouncing).

Also, once I learned how to pronounce English 'p' and 'k', I noticed myself putting those sounds into Russian words. .

Yet another issue is a particular (slight) accent, found in some old expatriate communities in the US (usually in older ppl who left, say, before 1985 and their American-born descendants). These people are mostly Jewish, and probably had the accent even back home.

And of course all expatriates mix the English words and Russian grammar a lot

It would not hurt to add "IMO" at least somewhere up there, I think.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Originally Posted by laxxy

This is not quite true; it is possible to "lose" the proper Russian accent.
I knew several people who spoke like that; without exception they were wives of Americans, who have lived in the US for 15+ years without communicating with other expatriates or visiting home (it was in the early 90's, when suddenly there were a lot of jobs in the former Soviet Union for people like that so they came back). The accent was not strong but definitely noticeable, mostly in the intonation patterns, and in the lack of vowel reduction (i.e. overpronouncing).

Also, once I learned how to pronounce English 'p' and 'k', I noticed myself putting those sounds into Russian words. .

Yet another issue is a particular (slight) accent, found in some old expatriate communities in the US (usually in older ppl who left, say, before 1985 and their American-born descendants). These people are mostly Jewish, and probably had the accent even back home.

And of course all expatriates mix the English words and Russian grammar a lot

It would not hurt to add "IMO" at least somewhere up there, I think.

I mixed in a "probably" OK, IMO. But you could hear this (or similar, I was a child then and can not be 100% confident) accent in Kiev 20 years ago. So I doubt it is just English influence.

Originally Posted by laxxy

...Yet another issue is a particular (slight) accent, found in some old expatriate communities in the US (usually in older ppl who left, say, before 1985 and their American-born descendants). These people are mostly Jewish, and probably had the accent even back home.

And of course all expatriates mix the English words and Russian grammar a lot

Originally Posted by laxxy

... But you could hear this (or similar, I was a child then and can not be 100% confident) accent in Kiev 20 years ago. So I doubt it is just English influence.

I believe that you are wrong making this generalization. I did notice, though, that most teenagers from Russian families speak Russian with an annoying accent.

Just a note: I am definitely not putting down the people who speak their native language with a variation, an accent or a local dialect.
Unlike an accent in a foreign language, which means that one needs to work more on his studies, an "accent" in the *native* language just shows one's heritage.
My native language is Russian, but I have a fairly strong Ukrainian flavor in my speech; I am sure I could get rid of it if I wanted to but I see no reason why I should. Likewise, I am making a good deal of effort to get rid of my Russian accent in English (because it is foreign), but were I from say Alabama, I would not be trying to speak like someone from Chicago.

Originally Posted by Lampada

Originally Posted by laxxy

...Yet another issue is a particular (slight) accent, found in some old expatriate communities in the US (usually in older ppl who left, say, before 1985 and their American-born descendants). These people are mostly Jewish, and probably had the accent even back home.

And of course all expatriates mix the English words and Russian grammar a lot

Originally Posted by laxxy

... But you could hear this (or similar, I was a child then and can not be 100% confident) accent in Kiev 20 years ago. So I doubt it is just English influence.

I believe that you are wrong making this generalization. I did notice, though, that most teenagers from Russian families speak Russian with an annoying accent.

OK, I may be jumping to conclusions. It may be just English influence.
But the people who I am thinking about are not teenagers. They, however, typically are people who came to the US in the 70s and early 80s (or their family members). I do not normally see any similar accent in those who came in the 90's or later. And these groups are demographically distinct.

Honestly, I think that every time a grown-up is labeled with the "acquired foreign accent", it's purely imaginary. There is a sufficiently broad variety of dialects across Russia to satisfy any "foreign accent" seeker . Not longer than a month or two ago, an old lady with a distinct western-siberian accent was marked down as a foreigner, absurdly enough. How is it that those who were raised in Ukraine and other "former republics" are the ones who are rock-solid on the idea of how a genuine Russian accent should sound? No offense intended, obviously.

Originally Posted by adoc

Honestly, I think that every time a grown-up is labeled with the "acquired foreign accent", it's purely imaginary. There is a sufficiently broad variety of dialects across Russia to satisfy any "foreign accent" seeker . No longer than a month or two ago, an old lady with a distinct western-siberian accent was marked down as a foreigner, absurdly enough. How is it that those who were raised in Ukraine and other "former republics" are the ones who are rock-solid on the idea of how a genuine Russian accent should sound? No offense intended, obviously.

Usually you are able to distinguish a regional variation from a foreign accent.
If you are talking about my first example, the features there were quite consistent across several people with unrelated, but similar, background (who were originally also from Ukraine, btw).

Well I don't hear anything out of the ordinary. We can argue all day, the bottom line being that the differences, if any, are too subtle to be picked up by an american, and this is where this conversation started.

Originally Posted by net surfer

Don't put pronunciation in normal speech on the same footing as pronunciation in songs.

Don't be stubborn, Net surfer. You know perfectly well what I mean. It's just an example that occurred to me, doesn't have to be a song. If I say БИгут or БЕгут (not emphsizing the vowel when saying, just to show what sound I pronounce), no-one will say I sound foreign or illiterate, simply because these vowels are unaccented.

--

Vowels reveal native Muscovites too well. Some Muscovites shorten or lengthen vowels making their speech distinct from other native Russian speakers - not all Moskva people are aware of their accent. It's not even the most correct Russian pronunciation, I'd be surprised if a TV commentator spoke like this.

My observation:
On the other hand, they make the vowels too clear in the South, even if they take effort to speak correct Russian. Thus, they say GAVARIT' (говорить) and you can hear each vowel clearly.
It's not something between A and O, just clear A. Same with Е/И, you will hear PEREDACHA (передача) with each vowel of equal length with clear E, not something between Е/И. I don't think it's 100% correct speech but a regional accent, by which southerners could be identified even if they use Russian hard Г (G), not Ukrainian Г (more like voiced H).

Originally Posted by adoc

Well I don't hear anything out of the ordinary. We can argue all day, the bottom line being that the differences, if any, are too subtle to be picked up by an american, and this is where this conversation started.

I guess you are right about that. These are very subtle differences.
It is also rare these days to actually meet a person who has not communicated in Russian for decades, as visiting home/talking on the phone/etc is no longer a problem.

[quote=Анатолий]

Originally Posted by "net surfer":1gy3ajgs

Don't put pronunciation in normal speech on the same footing as pronunciation in songs.

Don't be stubborn, Net surfer. You know perfectly well what I mean. It's just an example that occurred to me, doesn't have to be a song. If I say БИгут or БЕгут (not emphsizing the vowel when saying, just to show what sound I pronounce), no-one will say I sound foreign or illiterate, simply because these vowels are unaccented.[/quote:1gy3ajgs]
Huh? Stubborn? Did I even argue with you? I just said your example is not any good because it's a song. That's it.

Originally Posted by net surfer

Huh? Stubborn? Did I even argue with you? I just said your example is not any good because it's a song. That's it.

Sorry, didn't mean to upset you.

Okay, sorry to bring this up again. But the only thing I know from Russian comes from Pimsleur. The CD's are quite clear that "Где" is pronounced "gd-zia". I don't know where the "z" sound comes from. I've listened over and over again, in different parts of the CD's. But they always say it with the "z" sound in it.

Can somebody explain this?