Thread: Что произойдет в восточной Украине? (Eastern Ukraine?)

Originally Posted by it-ogo

(Интересно, Рамиль даже после этого замечательного диалога не увидит аналогий между гитлеровским Рейхом и путинской Россией?)

Слушай, а кто из ваших идеологов первым сделал этот вброс? Ваш охлос же моментально подхватывает "колорадских", "визитки Яроша" и т.п.
Про ваш любимый фашизм первым вякнул Шустер или кто-то до него?

Originally Posted by BappaBa

Слушай, а кто из ваших идеологов первым сделал этот вброс? Ваш охлос же моментально подхватывает "колорадских", "визитки Яроша" и т.п.
Про ваш любимый фашизм первым вякнул Шустер или кто-то до него?

Не знаю, как на Украине, а у нас, я помню, Шендерович ещё в начале олимпиады в Сочи кукарекал про рейх.

Part of me can't help to think that this is beginning to feel like a game of chess... As we all know Russians are pretty good at chess and has some very shrewd political analysts... Don't know about Ukrainians..

I'm thinking that Russians and the separatists in Eastern Ukraine are playing a rather shrewd game which will make the Kiev government and Praviy Sektor make certain rather predictable moves, and once all the pieces are where they want them, Russia will "have" to send in "peacekeeping" troops to prevent civil war/deaths. People will then "demand" a referendum....

Just a theory. But things are certainly moving in that direction aren't they?

And reading between the lines of the news stories it seems that most people in these cities get on with their normal lives while certain buildings are occupied and certain roads blocked. Media is showing dramatic pictures but I am beginning to realise that most people just get on with it, continue to do their jobs and live their lives while this, whatever it is, plays out.

Originally Posted by Hanna

... Russia will "have" to send in "peacekeeping" troops to prevent civil war/deaths. People will then "demand" a referendum....

Something like that scenario already happened, in Georgia, in 2008. I sincerely believed the Russians drew the right conclusions from that war, which are, the Russian "peace-keeping troops" may only wander around Russia and "make peace" only in Russia, not in other countries. The Crimea events showed that nothing has really changed much since then. But for some reason, I still believe that the Georgian scenario will never happen in eastern Ukraine.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

I sincerely believed the Russians drew the right conclusions from that war, which are, the Russian "peace-keeping troops" may only wander around Russia and "make peace" only in Russia, not in other countries.

Зато, похоже, выводы сделали США, когда не стали соваться в Сирию, как они делали много раз до этого.

Оффтопиковые посты перенесены в http://masterrussian.net/f16/%D0%BE%...A%D0%B8-22429/

Ну что же, у нас вроде все относительно тихо. Зелененьких вплоть до дороги на Славянск в последнее время не видно, лишившееся хозяев население блокпостов по свидетельству проезжающих, либо разбрелось, либо бухает горькую. На днях двое или трое молодцев нападали на сына проукраинского грузина, беженца из Абхазии, который на митингах выступал (тот отбился), а самому грузину разбили лобовое стекло машины. Типа фашизм не пройдет.

А вот Славянск в нескольких км. остается поставщиком новостей. Местная (городская) пресса практически прекратила работу, украинской прорваться весьма затруднительно, российская благоденствует.

Позапрошлой ночью на одном из блокпостов что-то произошло. Российский телеканал ЛайфНьюз выдал очень странный репортаж. Вроде бы к охраняемому безоружными жителями города блокпосту (а чего это на блокпостах безоружные, если город забит автоматчиками?) подъехало несколько внедорожников и начало пальбу в штатских, убив троих. Безоружные штатские под шквальным огнем вызвали из города подмогу, дождались ее, подмога провела бой, прогнала нападавших. Количество убитых и раненых нападавших неизвестно, т.к. унесли с собой. Зато на месте оставили две в хлам сгоревшие машины (шины - напрочь), в салоне которых было обнаружено большое количество документов правого сектора, и даже #ВизиткаЯроша. Свершилось! Ожидаемый уже несколько месяцев на Донбассе Правый Сектор явил полный комплект свидетельств своего присутствия. Помимо чудовищно огнеупорных документов и #ВЯ остались незакопченые номера внедорожников (днепропетровский и запорожский; не знаю, о чем это свидетельствует, но, видимо, важно), умилительно патриархальные пулеметы времен второй мировой (схрон бандеровский вскрыли? А как же многочисленные сообщения о захватах ПС складов вполне современных калашей во время захватов администраций на Западе?), а также некий жетон ПС под номером 20 очень неплохого дизайна. На жетоне (сам ПС о наличии таких жетонов у себя не в курсе - врут конечно же) гармоничным образом сплетается традиционная символика ПС с тевтонским крестом и орлом а-ля Рейх, в использовании каковых символов ПС до сих пор замечен не был. Раскрыта тайная, тщательно скрываемая слабость ПС к символике гитлеровской Германии!

Некоторое время спустя высказался "народный мэр" Пономарев. Оказывается, не все так смешно. Документы и #ВЯ были взяты из сумки погибшего боевика - он таки был, но мы вам его не покажем, а похороним здесь. Россия, введи войска (что, мало?), Лавров и все такое.

Через некоторое время показали побитого шибздика - вроде из нападавших, нашли где-то. Говорят, с винницким акцентом. Не расслышал. Про ПС его не спрашивали, сам он не сказал. Схватили очередную украинскую журналистку, - за расстрел Беркута в Киеве. Вообще шпионов ловят много и "с ними работают". Видимо, мой студент среди них, если еще жив, как и мэрша Штепа, которая сама не знает, за кого она, но популярностью пользуется. Вроде народ пытался ее вызволять, ходил, канючил у зелененьких, но куда там. Быстро разошли. Интересно, что сделает Киев, если этих шпионов начнут публично расстреливать? Наверное как всегда ничего.

Сообщения о стрельбе в разных частях города. Раненые - типа на окрик не остановились. "Комендантский час" от 00:00 до 06:00. Айн-цвай полицай!

Славянск по сравнению с нами - пестрый, неорганизованный и бедный. Интересно, это поэтому там так, или у нас так же было бы, сделай зелененькие свою базу у нас?

Мнение о планах Путина на Украине и не только. Записано ещё до вторжения на материковую Украину. Первые 5-10 минут можно и пропустить, в принципе.

"Проклятые вопросы" Валерия Отставных. Гость - Андрей Пионтковский.Тема:"Пойдет ли Путин на Киев"? - YouTube

Одну корреспондентку таки вытащили.

Originally Posted by it-ogo

Одну корреспондентку таки вытащили.

Ок, ну и где она написала, что "ведущие" это имеено военные на службе Министерства обороны РФ? Упоминание кем-то неким, что "Там вообще сидит спецура?" Ты вот мой вброс про финна-начальника разведки военного штаба ЕС проигнорировал, а зря. По идее, когда крупные бюрократы ЕС принимают решения и действуют исходя из того, что на территории Украины находятся российские войска, они должны руководствоваться какой-то достоверной информацией. По идее, сначала они должны вызвать на доклад начальника разведки и перво-наперво уточнить этот момент, а уже потом действовать. А так получается странная картина: бюрократы знают, что в Украине российские войска, а начальник военной разведки - нет. Может, начальнику разведки самому спросить у бюрократов? Как ты считаешь?

Всё будет хорошо.

Ансамбль имени А.В. Александрова исполнил гимн «Вежливые люди»

Apparently a Kiev supporting politician was found DEAD, TORTURED in Eastern Ukraine.
That's really, really disturbing. Volodymyr Rybak. Plus more "tortured bodies". Am I reading propaganda or the truth?
Does anyone know anything about this?

Another thing I am reading is that the Donetsk republic has taken an American journalist called Simon Ostrovsky as their prisoner. What on earth for - why not just throw him off the territory if they don't want him there. It all seems really disturbing.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Apparently a Kiev supporting politician was found DEAD, TORTURED in Eastern Ukraine.
That's really, really disturbing. Volodymyr Rybak. Plus more "tortured bodies". Am I reading propaganda or the truth?
Does anyone know anything about this?

Another thing I am reading is that the Donetsk republic has taken an American journalist called Simon Ostrovsky as their prisoner. What on earth for - why not just throw him off the territory if they don't want him there. It all seems really disturbing.

I now what I got from Internet sources (including local forums). Rybak participated in pro-Ukrainian meeting in Gorlovka ater several official buildings there were captured by greenies. Later he and several others approached the captured town hall and had a discussion with those guarding it. Then he was captured, here is the video. It happened at April 17. His cell phone was silent from that time. Yesterday his heavily tortured body was reported to be found in the river near Slaviansk (where the headquarters of greenies is) with one more body (unidentified).

There are at least several local (Kramatorsk and Slaviansk) people known to be catured, brought to Slaviansk and disappeared. Also there are few journalists and the actual mayor of Slaviansk Ms. Shtepa. Some captured people (including Shtepa) made some public announcement supporting their captors (written or on video) even though those announcements contradict their previous statements and activity. Still they are not let out.

The "people mayor" local guy Ponomariov (Afghanistan veteran) brought to power by greenies. Makes contradictory statements about killing accidents in Slaviansk and refuses to identify or give out to relatives bodies of the killed people. Ponomariov doesn't deny non-local nature of greenies and just says that "they came to help us". Yesterday night two bloggers reported the arrival to Slaviansk of three buses full of heavily armed greenies of non-slavic appearance (presumably Chechens).

Originally Posted by it-ogo

I now what I got from Internet sources (including local forums). Rybak participated in pro-Ukrainian meeting in Gorlovka ater several official buildings there were captured by greenies. Later he and several others approached the captured town hall and had a discussion with those guarding it. Then he was captured, here is the video. It happened at April 17. His cell phone was silent from that time. Yesterday his heavily tortured body was reported to be found in the river near Slaviansk (where the headquarters of greenies is) with one more body (unidentified).

There are at least several local (Kramatorsk and Slaviansk) people known to be catured, brought to Slaviansk and disappeared. Also there are few journalists and the actual mayor of Slaviansk Ms. Shtepa. Some captured people (including Shtepa) made some public announcement supporting their captors (written or on video) even though those announcements contradict their previous statements and activity. Still they are not let out.

The "people mayor" local guy Ponomariov (Afghanistan veteran) brought to power by greenies. Makes contradictory statements about killing accidents in Slaviansk and refuses to identify or give out to relatives bodies of the killed people. Ponomariov doesn't deny non-local nature of greenies and just says that "they came to help us". Yesterday night two bloggers reported the arrival to Slaviansk of three buses full of heavily armed greenies of non-slavic appearance (presumably Chechens).

Thanks for the summary. It sounds like these people have lost the perspective. I sympathise that they are angry about recent events in Kiev and trying to take matters into their own hands.

But this sounds out of control. Deliberately killing or torturing is far overstepping the mark. I thought these were normal people; civil servants and office workers. Not paramilitaries. Maybe this person got messed up in Afghanistan.
They are losing any moral credibility visavi nazis and others if they do things like that.
If they want rid of somebody they should just drive them out of town and warn them not to come back.

Maybe these people should look at moving to Russia instead of bringing Russia to them.... It doesn't sound like they have got the majority behind them, and if they are resorting to these types of methods people like me won't have any sympathy at all for them.

I think maybe Eastern Ukraine should just go it alone. Forget about Kiev, work with Russia, other Ukrainians, the EU etc on your own terms and speak Russian. There are several million people there, right? That's large enough for a successful country. All the nicest countries in Europe are below 10 million. Eastern Ukraine has mines, industry and farmland. I think it might work and it ends the madness in Ukraine once and for all. If the Scots can do it....

Oh, come on! Cui bono? Whose propaganda will benefit from a totured and then murdered Kiev supporter in Eastern Ukraine?
What was the motive behind this murder and who had it? Oh, I can admit that Rybak could end up with a broken nose or a few missing teeth.
It is quite obvious (to me, at the very least) that such things like torture and murder can only happen if there was some serious reason to do so. I failt to see any except for arranging a provocation.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Oh, come on! Cui bono? Whose propaganda will benefit from a totured and then murdered Kiev supporter in Eastern Ukraine?
What was the motive behind this murder and who had it? Oh, I can admit that Rybak could end up with a broken nose or a few missing teeth.
It is quite obvious (to me, at the very least) that such things like torture and murder can only happen if there was some serious reason to do so. I failt to see any except for arranging a provocation.

Yes, that occurred to me while I was writing and it certainly wouldn't be the first time a really dirty trick was pulled in this conflict. The leaflet to the Jews, for example. So silly it's insane. But reported as a fact in Western European media. Despite the fact that it's the other side that have actual Nazis on it.

So if that is the case, then the separatists have to find some proof that they are innocent asap! Someone killed him and if they reckon they are in charge they should not let anyone get assasinated, or assasinate anyone themselves!
They should start their own investigation, make a statement to condemn and deny and if it turns out it's somebody from their side, just hand him over to the police in Kiev.
If this is methods they think are acceptable, then they definitely lose any sympathy from me. It's one thing if somebody who god involved fully informed is killed by accident. But torturing and executing people - that's terrorism..

And if it's a setup, then it's the second time (possibly) that people are killed in a false flag operation in this conflict, with the the first time being the snipers on Maidan. Robert Ludlum wouldn't have been able to come up with this scenario if he was on LSD. It's so insane!

Problem is, media in Western Europe only reports the blackpainting (if that is what it is).
They never bother to report that it was faked or a black ops. Or if they do, it's not in the main headline.

So as far as the average European is concerned, who try to follow this in a language they can understand, The Eastern Ukrainian separatists are Jew hating, torturing murderers and Putin is leading the whole thing behind the scene and just waiting to invade..... Or he's just doing it because he's an evil gay hating dictator....

Like I said before, welcome to Cold War 2.0 the digital edition.

It is quite obvious (to me, at the very least) that such things like torture and murder can only happen if there was some serious reason to do so. I failt to see any except for arranging a provocation.

oh, now that will be of great comfort to Rybak; alternatively just blame the victim. sometimes it does help not to feverishly believe one storyline

Originally Posted by eisenherz

oh, now that will be of great comfort to Rybak; alternatively just blame the victim. sometimes it does help not to feverishly believe one storyline

The question was: who and why murdered him? Were it pro-Russian separatists whose hatred to all civilized people is very-well known? Or, perhaps, it was Russian intelligence officers who saw a great danger for their devious invasion plans in Rybak's continued living? Perhaps, it was Putin himself who secretly travelled to meet Rybak and then killed him in cold blood. Who knows, who knows. All these theories seem valid.

I find it somehow odd that only in Slavyansk the struggle went really dirty. The so-called "people's mayor" of Slavyansk is totally a black horse. Compare the "people's mayor" of Slavyansk:

971971_3.jpg

With the real people's mayor of Sevastopol:

chalij.jpg

To the best of my knowledge, the latter had never prosecuted or called for prosecution of anybody. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Ну, в какой-то мере я согласен, что по "морде лица" можно судить о человеке... но всё-таки какой-то это несерьёзный аргумент. Тут можно привести так же честное лицо мэра Харькова или доброе и. о. президента Украины.