Thread: Российская оппозиция

Originally Posted by Hanna

The thing that would concern me if I was Russian, would be corruption and nepotism.

Yes
The only problem is an average Russian believes that with "real democracy" corruption will magically go away

Personally I don't believe that there is such a thing as Real Democracy.
Particularly not in those countries that talk about it the most.

Plus, democracy is dependent on people having a reasonable level of education and taking an interest in politics.

And another reason why democracy is something of an illusion:

Anyone who's got mass media on their side can make people believe their side of the story.
And then tell people that it is "free media", "Правда" or whatever you like, just to further enhance the illusion that your propaganda is objective news. It tricks people.

This is a terrible threat to democracy, because it means you can manipulate the voters if you control media. The state can control media through various subtle or not so subtle means. Corporate interests can control media through various means. Some kind of cultural elite controls aspects of media in some countries.

Then there are lobbyists in many countries, lobbying politicians after they have been elected. This too is undemocratic.

And large corporations or very rich individuals contributing to the election campaigns of the political party that they would like to see winning.

In this kind of environment you don't even need to bother with something as obvious as ballot box stuffing.....

I actually believe that democracy is one of the biggest hoaxes in the modern world.

Originally Posted by Doomer

Yes
The only problem is an average Russian believes that with "real democracy" corruption will magically go away

But according to many Russians here, Russians in general believe that democracy is crap, and is responsible for the difficulties in the 1990s.

A "good" dictator could also get rid of corruption, by starting a zero tolerance policy. Lee Kuan Yew did that in Singapore. Of course, good dictators are dangerous, because they can turn bad so easily...

Originally Posted by Deborski

Yeah it's like this:

379164_196551197101467_100002397650025_397337_1869415650_n.jpg

All we can do is hope that sanity prevails! And I believe it will. I have to believe that.

Too right! That is just not the way, and you'd have to have had your brain completely washed inside out to think that democracy is achieved by one kickass country going to a country on the other side of the planet and forcing the "democracy" on them at gunpoint....

The UK is just as bad, I should say, because they are mainly in these wars to impress America... and then they are constantly talking about "winning the hearts and minds" of local people in Afghanistan and Iraq. Yeah right.... come with an armored tank and shoot at wedding parties and goatherds, and pee on them on youtube..... Then get surprised that you don't manage to "win their hearts and minds".

Originally Posted by Hanna

But according to many Russians here, Russians in general believe that democracy is crap, and is responsible for the difficulties in the 1990s.

I want specific quote
You might have misunderstood
Again, many Russians believe that "grass is greener somewhere else" and usually "somewhere else" claims to have democracy there. This automatically means Russian hasn't had any democracy so far

Что такое "Real Democracy".....? Is there really such a thing...?

Originally Posted by Deborski

Что такое "Real Democracy".....? Is there really such a thing...?

In eyes of an average Russian "тама лучшей чем тута" or "хорошо там где нас нет" or "The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence!"

In eyes of an average Russian "тама лучшей чем тута" or "хорошо там где нас нет" or "The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence!"

Heh - it seems that many Americans see things the opposite way - that is HERE is best, and THERE is worst. They seem to believe that America is the biggest, greatest, most amazing place on earth and they have little interest in exploring other cultures or gaining from foreign perspectives. Many people in the States, especially the "bible belt" areas and the south, prefer to live in their own comfortable, familiar surroundings and oppose change of any kind, no matter how logical or reasonable it may be. Such as energy-saving light-bulbs for example. "No! If it was good enough for Thomas Edison in the 1800's, it's good enough for us now in the 21st century" blah, blah, blah - that kind of thinking. Stifling, unimaginative and limited in vision.

I don't mind a little patriotism, I believe people should love their countries. But at the same time, we should love our world and show interest in other people, in different ways of thinking. Otherwise we will become stagnant. Thankfully, I know I am not the only one who feels like this!

Originally Posted by Deborski

Heh - it seems that many Americans see things the opposite way - that is HERE is best, and THERE is worst. T!

The thing that's worrying about the USA and Americans is that many are very ignorant about the world outside their own borders
(not all, but the majority, I think. Including many government figures.)

They see the US as the centre of the world, the country that always
knows what's best for everyone on the planet. Americans also don't seem to realise that they are the victims of state- and other propaganda just as much, or possibly more, than Russians, Chinese, Europeans or anyone else. In the case of Russians, they are at least aware and suspcicious about what they hear in the media, and conscious that it is being manipulated to varying degrees.

If it stopped att that, it wouldn't be a problem, but in the case of the USA, they have the biggest military, the most nukes and influence across the globe through various opinion institutes, NGOs, their media etc.

I like American people in general, the country itself is really fascinating in many ways. But I get blinded to all the good sides through my
huge irritation and frustration about US foreign policy (meddling in other countries politics) starting wars and telling other countries what they
can or can't do in terms of internet usage. Lately having Europeans arrested and requested for extradition to America for nonsense stuff like running a torrent site.

As suspicious as I am against China, and to some degree Russia, they are not half as meddlesome and agressive as America - and they don't
constantly bang on about supposed values like freedom, democracy etc - while supporting the exact opposite and starting wars.

Originally Posted by Hanna

As suspicious as I am against China, and to some degree Russia, they are not half as meddlesome and agressive as America - and they don't constantly bang on about supposed values like freedom, democracy etc - while supporting the exact opposite and starting wars.

I'm constantly holding myself not to comment on stuff like that.

As suspicious as I am against China, and to some degree Russia, they are not half as meddlesome and agressive as America - and they don't
constantly bang on about supposed values like freedom, democracy etc - while supporting the exact opposite and starting wars.

Yeah it's like this:

379164_196551197101467_100002397650025_397337_1869415650_n.jpg

All we can do is hope that sanity prevails! And I believe it will. I have to believe that.

I do believe that democracy is possible, but I agree with you that corruption is the biggest threat to anything. There does not seem to be any peaceful means to deal with corruption, either. In US, the media is a big joke! I watch the BBC, Al Jazeera and Russia Today and I am better informed than the masses of Americans who watch FOX "news" (I refuse to call it NEWS without the quotations! Ethical reasons!).

Then we have the corruption of the uber-wealthy, who buy our congressional representatives by the bushel. I think our elected officials should all wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers wear, which show who sponsored them. I enjoy watching Stephen Colbert and Jon Stewart expose this corruption and nonsense. But I find it deeply disturbing, that I must rely on "comedians" to get information!!! That is how bad our "news" media is these days. I was a journalist for 15 years and I left the business for this very reason.

Honestly I am not worried about democracy in Russia. First of all its the Russians problem, not mine.... It doesn't have any effect outside of the borders of Russia. Secondly, it's really doubtful if Russia is any less democratic than Europe in general and the USA in particular.

Of course Putin's totalitarian regime affects the neighboring countries.
Putin's regime does not even fully recognize Baltic states.
Current Russian government policy is to create instability in "near foreign countries" or "Russian sphere of influence".
And they do it by spreading lies, half-truths and misinformation (many Russians in Latvia use Russian media (because they understand language better and Russian media can provide a lot more content than Latvian media) and easily become victims of their propaganda)...
And financing political parties and other groups hostile to countries they operate in.
Money for recent hate-mongering campaign (to sign petition for Russian to become official language in Latvia) also, probably came from Russia.

And of course - invasion in Georgia in 2008.

Originally Posted by nulle

Of course Putin's totalitarian regime affects the neighboring countries.
Putin's regime does not even fully recognize Baltic states.

Didn't you know?
Putin was specifically elected to harass Baltic states, that's his main goal

Originally Posted by nulle

Baltic states.

Вали со своими Baltic states из этой темы в помойку, к-рую развел здесь Regarding Russian in the Baltic States

IMHO, We know for sure about grass, and don't understand what 'democracy' means. However, "демократ" is rude word, because the strange society, built in 1990s, was built by the people who called themselves "демократы".

Согласно последним исследованиям прибалтийских географов, ось вращения Земли проходит через Таллллинннн.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Согласно последним исследованиям прибалтийских географов, ось вращения Земли проходит через Таллллинннн.

Таа-таа, при эт-том, астрон-номмичческая про-толшитель-ность сут-ток пер-манентт-но увеличиффа-ицца.

Bали со своими Baltic states из этой темы в помойку

This was just an example - how current Russian government affects foreign countries.
This is your tax money after all.
That is taken away from infrastructure, schools, pensions, etc... and given to provocateurs and 5th column in foreign countries.

Originally Posted by Doomer

I want specific quote
You might have misunderstood
Again, many Russians believe that "grass is greener somewhere else" and usually "somewhere else" claims to have democracy there. This automatically means Russian hasn't had any democracy so far

Well, I quote Ramil and Basil77 then. I have learnt a lot about how Russians (well, educated Russians in the Moscow area, I guess....) look at things. I think they are a similar age to me also, so it's easy to relate to their experience of events.

Originally Posted by Deborski

But I find it deeply disturbing, that I must rely on "comedians" to get information!!! That is how bad our "news" media is these days. I was a journalist for 15 years and I left the business for this very reason.

Yeah, I have noticed this fact in American media (comedians) although I did not know it was a trend. How creepy! Interesting to hear that you used to be a journalist. I think that the Internet is one of the few places where you can really find out and inform yourself about stuff without having someone elses agenda or propaganda shoved down your throat. All the more scary that politicians and corporations are starting to plot how to control it, starting but not ending with filesharing and alleged "terrorists".I think the story of the Megaupload bust would really interest you Deborski - check out the site torrentfreak.com

Originally Posted by nulle

Of course Putin's totalitarian regime affects the neighboring countries.
Putin's regime does not even fully recognize Baltic states.

They haven't invaded you or threatened you, have they? And people have the right to read whatver media they like, don't they? This is no different from you watching Euronews or CNN. I am beginning to think that the Baltic states are under some kind of mass paranoia. Take Finland for example, they don't annoy Russia on purpose but they are not paranoid about Russia either. And they have some "history" shall we say. Their current approach has proven very good for their economy too. The Baltic States should try that approach.

Yeah, I have noticed this fact in American media (comedians) although I did not know it was a trend. How creepy! Interesting to hear that you used to be a journalist. I think that the Internet is one of the few places where you can really find out and inform yourself about stuff without having someone elses agenda or propaganda shoved down your throat. All the more scary that politicians and corporations are starting to plot how to control it, starting but not ending with filesharing and alleged "terrorists".I think the story of the Megaupload bust would really interest you Deborski - check out the site torrentfreak.com

Thanks for the link! I agree, the internet is the last realm of freedom really. So of course the control-freaks of the world want to shut it down. The people are talking, and learning about each other, learning what is a lie and what is truth - and we are no longer forced to rely on our media.

But I wonder, if they shut the net down, won't we humans just find another way to talk? It seems we are always building our figurative "tower of babel" despite what the gods would prefer. We evolved this internet communication system to get around the barriers of government... perhaps if they block us again, we will just find another way around.

Латвия и Эстония - разные страны.
Но, я согласен, что nulle уже задолбал переводить все разговоры к одной и той же теме.