Thread: абсолютный и чистый демократ )))

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Originally Posted by Ramil

[Lot's of interesting stuff]

But that would cause two different classes of people "lower" (consumer) and "upper" (producer)... I thought Marxism was all about equality. Shouldn't work then be equal?

I would agree on consumer/producer but wouldn't agree on lower/higher division. You're free either to work or not to work. It's all your choice. You can even migrate from one group to another, if you want. So where's the unequality?

Originally Posted by Ramil

Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Originally Posted by Ramil

[Lot's of interesting stuff]

But that would cause two different classes of people "lower" (consumer) and "upper" (producer)... I thought Marxism was all about equality. Shouldn't work then be equal?

I would agree on consumer/producer but wouldn't agree on lower/higher division. You're free either to work or not to work. It's all your choice. You can even migrate from one group to another, if you want. So where's the unequality?

In this case, we have COMMUNISM in America

You could have been right if there were no povetry in the US.

(Well, and if that farmer from Nebraska as well as anybody else could afford everything that lawyer can, or some movie star from Beverly Hills)

Originally Posted by Ramil

You could have been right if there were no povetry in the US.

(Well, and if that farmer from Nebraska as well as anybody else could afford everything that lawyer can, or some movie star from Beverly Hills)

Most people in the US belong to middle class, unlike people in Russia: poor or rich, and nothing in between.
BTW, US farmers are not poor.

Originally Posted by Ramil

I would agree on consumer/producer but wouldn't agree on lower/higher division. You're free either to work or not to work. It's all your choice. You can even migrate from one group to another, if you want. So where's the unequality?

I see what you mean... but everybody can't live like a movie star and not do anything... I don't think this is what communsim is about. I thought it was to share EVERYTHING, even work.

Originally Posted by charlestonian

Most people in the US belong to middle class, unlike people in Russia

Really? AFAIK US middle class starts from about $18000 income to 120000+ income per family. It's the most wide middle class in the world, from people who are not hungry to people who are almost reach.

Originally Posted by JJ

Really? AFAIK US middle class starts from about $18000 income to 120000+ income per family. It's the most wide middle class in the world, from people who are not hungry to people who are almost reach.

Are you serious? Even in Russia 18000$ far not essential to belong to middle class. I always thought that one of the main signs of middle class is ability to afford a real estate. For example my income is more than 18000$ a year but I can't even think about buying a flat! So I can't consider myself belonging to middle class.

FYI nobody in his right mind buys real estate and gives the whole sum. Instead one takes a loan and pays for it the next 20 years or so. This is Middle class.

Originally Posted by Ramil

FYI nobody in his right mind buys real estate and gives the whole sum. Instead one takes a loan and pays for it the next 20 years or so. This is Middle class.

I know this but I can't even think about taking a loan!

Originally Posted by Ramil

FYI nobody in his right mind buys real estate and gives the whole sum. Instead one takes a loan and pays for it the next 20 years or so. This is Middle class.

You are correct. Most middle-class people buying everything on credit.

That's why, btw, it's so important for economics. Maybe, its most important feature (aside from taxes, I think). It's always in debt. And promises to pay regularly which allows long term planning.

Originally Posted by Ramil

That's why, btw, it's so important for economics. Maybe, its most important feature (aside from taxes, I think). It's always in debt. And promises to pay regularly which allows long term planning.

As long as you pay your bills on time, you are OK. If not, you are going to a poor house.

Think you're middle class and can't fork out the entire sum? Then you're not middle class. You're poor.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Think you're middle class and can't fork out the entire sum? Then you're not middle class. You're poor.

It is not true. Many middle-class Americans prefer to pay for everything on credit (credit cards, mortgage, cars, boats, etc.) and to keep the rest of their money invested in stocks which bring them profits higher than their expenses. The less money they have to pay now, the more they are able to invest. This is the American way.

Originally Posted by VendingMachine

Think you're middle class and can't fork out the entire sum? Then you're not middle class. You're poor.

You have a wrong perception of the term 'middle-class'. That's why it's called 'middle' - because of it occupies the place between poor and righ.

Check this thread.

And this (the link from that same thread).

charlestonian
They still have to pay interest.

What's the point of buying a PS3 for $600, actually paying 800 or 1000?

Originally Posted by Vincent Tailors

charlestonian
They still have to pay interest.

What's the point of buying a PS3 for $600, actually paying 800 or 1000?

I thought I explained that...
1. They will pay on a monthly basis which is not really much, even with interest.
2. They have more money left to invest, and more money bring them even more money in dividends.

Also, many people buy houses, pay mortgage, and rent those houses out for more money than mortgage is, so somebody else is paying for their houses! and more.

Also, many people buy houses, pay mortgage, and rent those houses out for more money than mortgage is, so somebody else is paying for their houses! and more.

It must be not that easy. Otherwise, everyone would be acting like that, and it's not the case, as I can judge.

Originally Posted by Vincent Tailors

Also, many people buy houses, pay mortgage, and rent those houses out for more money than mortgage is, so somebody else is paying for their houses! and more.

It must be not that easy. Otherwise, everyone would be acting like that, and it's not the case, as I can judge.

It's true, not everybody can do that but many do. And they are not rich but a middle class!

By the way an interesting article (in my opinion) on the middle class in Russia and the World:

Недолгое счастье среднего класса
http://www.russia-today.ru/2007/no_10/10_topic_2.htm

Там целый номер про средний класс, но эта статья мне показалась наиболее интересной.