Thread: We should be able to discuss....

a certain large, Russian speaking, European country which borders the Russian Federation. The situation there is not going to change any time soon and it makes no sense to constantly dance around the topic. Sure, there will be users who spew crap, cite questionable news sources, hurl insults and hijack the threads, but so what? For every 10 meaningless posts, there is usually one post that says something interesting or at least makes a person reconsider what he/she believes to be true. I have even seen people on here change their position slightly.

What is happening there should be of interest to whoever is interested in politics concerning Russia, not to mention that Russian language is used there and this is a forum about Russian language.

Absolutely. I know Lampada got fed up and annoyed last time. Some people went too far (some Russians and one or two Ukrainians), others ranted (me) but things have changed.

With 6 months hiatus, I think people got the message to keep it civil regarding :this country:

There are no other places online where intelligent Russian speaking people from both sides of the conflict explain their views in English. MR has a unique position to be a forum of discussion. An intelligent and reasonably polite discussion on this, in English, would generate traffic to the site, no doubt.

Any discussion about UA could start with a warning that people who cross the line of decent forum behaviour, swear or get personal will automatically get banned for a month.

5000 have died, a million are "refugees" in Russia or Western Ukraine... It's the reason for the sanctions on Russia and subsequently the dramatic fall of the rouble. It's the biggest civil war in Europe since Yugoslavia. We can't debate issues to do with Russia without bringing it up.

Ладно, давайте попробуем вернуться к Украине. Правда, не знаю, кто здесь сейчас с Украины, так что боюсь, что с двух сторон информации с мест мы не получим.
Вчера на Al Jazeera показали большой обмен пленными: Kiev and rebels complete prisoner swap - Europe - Al Jazeera English
Может, военные действия теперь закончатся наконец.

Thank you Lampada. Does anyone know what happened to forum member it-ogo who is from Donetsk, I think. He was here and argued passionately for the Ukrainian side. A lot of people fled Donetsk when it was being bombed. I hope it-ogo wasn't hurt and that he is either still in Donetsk and coping. Or that he is safe elsewhere in Ukraine, or in Russia.

5000 have died, a million are "refugees" in Russia or Western Ukraine... It's the reason for the sanctions on Russia

5000 have died {during the conflict between western and eastern Ukraine I guess} a million are "refugees" in Russia or Western Ukraine, It's the reason for the sanctions on Russia...
This is simply illogical; rumors and empty speculation aside, what does Russia officiallyhave to do with the quarrel between the two Ukraines and why has it been punished for not being involved into the conflict?

Should Mr Putin have started military invasion under the disguise of taking care of the Russians remaining in the region being subjected to deadly risks out there?

Originally Posted by Hanna

Thank you Lampada. Does anyone know what happened to forum member it-ogo who is from Donetsk, I think. He was here and argued passionately for the Ukrainian side. A lot of people fled Donetsk when it was being bombed. I hope it-ogo wasn't hurt and that he is either still in Donetsk and coping. Or that he is safe elsewhere in Ukraine, or in Russia.

it-ogo is one of the best "teachers" of MR.
Hope he is well

Originally Posted by Medved

5000 have died {during the conflict between western and eastern Ukraine I guess} a million are "refugees" in Russia or Western Ukraine, It's the reason for the sanctions on Russia...
This is simply illogical; rumors and empty speculation aside, what does Russia officiallyhave to do with the quarrel between the two Ukraines and why has it been punished for not being involved into the conflict?

Should Mr Putin have started military invasion under the disguise of taking care of the Russians remaining in the region being subjected to deadly risks out there?

'This is simply illogical; rumors and empty speculation aside, what does Russia officiallyhave to do with the quarrel between the two Ukraines and why has it been punished for not being involved into the conflict?'
Are you serious? LOL

Edit: Even if no one can agree whether Russia 'has invaded' or sent military into Ukraine territory, it's undeniable they have Russian citizens (Russian nationality) that have prominent military and legislative (plus territorial) roles. In particular:

Alexander Borodai (Russian?)
Igor Strelkov/Girkin (Russian)

That should be enough to understand objection and one could disagree with the sanctions as a response but it's one thing to assert Russia had no accountability whatsoever.

I don't know if my post will be allowed but I am not intending to argue or cause any friction. I'm just offering a perspective to answer the previous post. That's all.

Umm, there are a couple of things to consider in regard with this situation.
The most active resistance or "sanctions" began in November while Strelkov had retired on August, 14. Why was the "retribution" pending for so long? Same story with Borodai. He quit on August, 7th so I still don't understand how these things are connected.
But there's something more to it and it's rather about the historical and cultural connection of the two countries. Since WW2 there has been a lot our countries have had to go through together and this mutual story cannot be just forgotten as if it had never existed. Russians have a lot or friends and relatives there in Ukraine (not to mention business connections and stuff like that) and a lot of Ukrainians are also tied with Russia in the same manner. Even when Ukraine moved away from Russia, still there were a lot of Russian stuff and Russian people inside Ukraine and those people, being Russians by nationality and having corresponding stamps in their passports, were actually belonging to Ukraine with both their body and soul. That's why I also can't understand how you can judge people so easily by only their formal status.

I do understand though that the US or whoever started all this fuss didn't have to bother with all this stuff I am talking about to launch the action; they could use any, even remotely suitable little reason, for the actual (i.e. those we may not know about) reasons to do it overpowered the reasons not to do it. IMO

Medved - I am not saying Russia has anything to do with it.

I don't know whether it has or not, my guess is the Russian state doesn't, but some private Russian citizens and Russian organisations do. I don't believe that the Russian army is there.

However, I live in Western Europe, and I just have to turn on the TV to hear the agitation against "Russia's involvement in Ukraine"

It-ogo who was active here and lived in Donetsk, said that he personally saw Russian Federation soldiers in Ukraine.

It's hard to know what to think and I know for sure that I cannot trust what I read in Swedish or English papers, they are completely biased.

I recognise the rhetoric and agitation when Western media wants to really villify somebody - we see it all the time (Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Syria, Venezuela, Talibans etc).
Right now it's Russia and Putin and it's the culmination of something that's been building up for years. Obviously "somebody" wants the Cold War back.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

Edit: Even if no one can agree whether Russia 'has invaded' or sent military into Ukraine territory, it's undeniable they have Russian citizens (Russian nationality) that have prominent military and legislative (plus territorial) roles. In particular:

Yes, and what's so shocking about that? It's passionate individuals who are representing themselves only, definitely not on the orders of Putin.

It's completely normal for people to join in conflicts where they sympathise with one side or the other, even if their country is not in the war. It happens all the time.

I.e. Finnish Winter War as you know, Civil war in Spain,various volunteers and partisans in the second world war. EU citizens of Moslem origin who fight with.

It's just individuals following their heart and passion irregardless of what their country thinks. No doubt some individual Russians are there fighting, but not in an official capacity representing the Russian state.l

Originally Posted by Hanna

Yes, and what's so shocking about that? It's passionate individuals who are representing themselves only, definitely not on the orders of Putin.

It's completely normal for people to join in conflicts where they sympathise with one side or the other, even if their country is not in the war. It happens all the time.

I.e. Finnish Winter War as you know, Civil war in Spain,various volunteers and partisans in the second world war. EU citizens of Moslem origin who fight with.

It's just individuals following their heart and passion irregardless of what their country thinks. No doubt some individual Russians are there fighting, but not in an official capacity representing the Russian state.l

Yes, I'm sure it's just innocent passion only. Girkin admitted he was in the FSB until 2013 and was a retired Colonel. If you can't see the conflict of interest and problem there....But, why do I bother replying to you. LOL.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

Yes, I'm sure it's just innocent passion only. Girkin admitted he was in the FSB until 2013 and was a retired Colonel. If you can't see the conflict of interest and problem there....But, why do I bother replying to you. LOL.

There are Serbs, Swedes, Greeks, Poles, French, Spaniards, Canadians, Americans fighting on rebels' side on the East of Ukraine. Should "the world" punish those countries too?
An American rebel in Ukraine | The Wider Image | Reuters
Несколько волонтеров из Испании прибыли в Донецк для помощи населению |
Греки воюют в рядах ополченцев ДН

Originally Posted by hddscan

There are Serbs, Swedes, Greeks, Poles, French, Spaniards, Canadians, Americans fighting on rebels' side on the East of Ukraine. Should "the world" punish those countries too?
An American rebel in Ukraine | The Wider Image | Reuters
Несколько волонтеров из Испании прибыли в Донецк для помощи населению |
Греки воюют в рядах ополченцев ДН

Was anybody accusing those countries with supplying military equipment, personnel etc. at the beginning?!? Are any of them in the FSB or Russian army or part of the Government of any of those countries? How does a section of territory of a country suddenly have full blown military equipment that can take on an army anyway (without assistance)?

I am fully against both sides but your question is rather ridiculous, sorry.

An American Rebel in Ukraine: ... blah blah...he described himself as a veteran of the American military without a job in the United States

lol! The "World" should have imposed the sanctions on the USA as their military officers fight on the side of rebels

It's completely normal for people to join in conflicts

But how the conflict began? Who started it? Junta ousted Yanukovich, yes. But per my understanding, those guys were not anti-Eastern, and were representing entire Ukraine. People in Donetsk could put up with it just as others regions did.
BTW, it is funny, how they declared elections and there was plenty of candidates, but since very beginning all knew who wins.

So excuse me, still it was Russia who had organized this mess and that I can't approve (and prove of course). Never.
Not that I could approve of how Ukrainian "army" acted, but it was AFTER we started.
It has been bad year. We realized that Putin does not give a damn for Ukraine and Ukraines. But the worst I realized that most my countrymen too, and don't object Russia to copy US's behaviour. This hysteria in our mass media... it's terrible thing.
In essence it means that bombs can start falling upon your heads SUDDENLY and for Ukraine this war is not cold.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

Was anybody accusing those countries with supplying military equipment, personnel etc. at the beginning?!?.

And that's a problem, don't you think? That all those countries "involved" in the conflict but only Russia gets the blame.

Originally Posted by hddscan

And that's a problem, don't you think? That all those countries "involved" in the conflict but only Russia gets the blame.

They didn't sanction a bunch of voluntary retirees or whatever they are. The Colonels and others involved in Novorossiya have high level military links, and was in the FSB. They're in the country who is a neighbour to the conflict. These are not ragtag veterans or soldiers. Do you not see the difference?!? Or are you just pretending?

Originally Posted by maxmixiv

But how the conflict began? Who started it? Junta ousted Yanukovich, yes. But per my understanding, those guys were not anti-Eastern, and were representing entire Ukraine. People in Donetsk could put up with it just as others regions did.

Junta? Please explain. I noticed on various discussions, both here and other sites, of Putinoids using this term to describe Ukraine - Kiev Junta this, that... So, what is it? I don't think they understand what the word means....

Does Novorossiya have a 'Junta?' It seems like the word is more applicable to describe them. Their entire 'government' is one large concentration of military figures.

Originally Posted by maxmixiv

We realized that Putin does not give a damn for Ukraine and Ukraines. But the worst I realized that most my countrymen too, and don't object Russia to copy US's behaviour. This hysteria in our mass media... it's terrible thing.
In essence it means that bombs can start falling upon your heads SUDDENLY and for Ukraine this war is not cold.

Fair comment, one-sided media reporting is not a good thing. I think Russia's behaviour is a bit contradictory too. But Russia is nowhere near "copying the US behaviour", there are light years left, until it comes to that.

Hanna,
How is it that you complain about a few people saying negative things about Russia but you constantly say negative things about the USA? Sounds like "Do as I say and not as I do" to me.

Scott

Originally Posted by Hanna

Fair comment, one-sided media reporting is not a good thing. I think Russia's behaviour is a bit contradictory too. But Russia is nowhere near "copying the US behaviour", there are light years left, until it comes to that.