Thread: Victor Bout - Russian Businessman (?) facing 25 years in US prison

I realise that most Americans don't reflect on this type of stuff at all, or they just make the assumption that she outlined, or they accept the version of events as presented in US media.

I'd say more. The "Russians" (i.e. soviet people) were the same in those times. "We are big, we can, it makes sense. Therefore, we will do ..." The way of thinking changes, when your country turns into smaller , non-powerful one.

Originally Posted by maxmixiv

I'd say more. The "Russians" (i.e. soviet people) were the same in those times. "We are big, we can, it makes sense. Therefore, we will do ..." The way of thinking changes, when your country turns into smaller , non-powerful one.

I did not have a lot to do with Russia in Soviet times, but I did visit Leningrad while the USSR still existed. I definitely did not get the impression that people had some kind of superpower superiority complex! They were basically nice but a bit standoffish and reserved. Both with my family, and later with my choir group, we were treated like aliens from outer space, essentially.

My impression is that Russians are quite philosophical and cynical, about politics both past and present. And that they miss the "feelgood" aspects of the USSR as an empire, I mean, the good positive things that nobody could argue were negative, such as good sports programs, supporting rural areas and improving living standards in Central Asia.

If you compare with the UK which used to have a large empire, people there swing from a *very* superior attitude towards other Europeans, the EU and certain ex colonial countries... to total self hatred for certain things that were done during colonial times, that they are rightfully ashamed of now. And extreme deference for the USA. It's almost as if the UK quite knowingly being the lapdog of the USA now, is some kind of punishment for messing up the empire.. Many Brits that (somewhat arrogantly) feel totally superior to Americans in terms of culture and education nevertheless that following the USA politically is the right thing to do. The Daily Mail reflects this viewpoint.

I think, with Russia things are a bit more similar to the USA: People can live their entire life there and not have any contact with foreigners, and perhaps they generally don't reflect much on how foreigners might percieve them or their country. But unlike Americans, Russians had big and dramatic changes taking place in their country, and were forced to question everything they believed in or at least took for granted. This never happened in the USA.

For the record I couldn't say that most Americans that I personally know have any superiority complex either. But all Americans I hae known well have been expats, not typical people. Likewise the Russians here, are probably not that representative of Russians in general - I mean, some are expats and some are very talented language learners.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I think, with Russia things are a bit more similar to the USA: People can live their entire life there and not have any contact with foreigners, and perhaps they generally don't reflect much on how foreigners might percieve them or their country.

I think it's almost direct opposite. Russians care too much about what people from other countries think, and that's a tragedy of the nation. They may say "We don't care", but it's more of presenting a strong facade. Combined with an overall negative attitude towards Russia, it leads to people feeling constantly underappreciated and misunderstood, putting them into perpetual defensive position. It was very much like that in the USSR too, except that official media generally lulled people into believing that all decent foreigners liked us and admired our achievements, and only bad foreigners were unhappy (their loss, right?).

I'd say that this kind of neverending stress of trying to achieve two incompatible things at once (being a strong and self-respected nation as Russians see it, and being accepted and admired by the world community) is bad for nation's health.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

I think it's almost direct opposite. Russians care too much about what people from other countries think, and that's a tragedy of the nation. They may say "We don't care", but it's more of presenting a strong facade. Combined with an overall negative attitude towards Russia, it leads to people feeling constantly underappreciated and misunderstood, putting them into perpetual defensive position. It was very much like that in the USSR too, except that official media generally lulled people into believing that all decent foreigners liked us and admired our achievements, and only bad foreigners were unhappy (their loss, right?).

I'd say that this kind of neverending stress of trying to achieve two incompatible things at once (being a strong and self-respected nation as Russians see it, and being accepted and admired by the world community) is bad for nation's health.

Yes, I agree, that foreigners are often overestimated. Right method to deal with them is probable as depicted in film "Дежавю" Дежа вю (фильм, 198 — Википедия

I only tried to say, that at least for me (the kid back then in 1970s) it seemed natural that KGB or Soviet Army could act by any means to protect USSR citizens anywhere. But I am afraid it wasn't so even in those days.
Now our government can only observe and blame when some Russians get in trouble.

Really? But why would they care, if they live in the middle of Siberia and practically never meet anyone who is not Russian or ex Soviet... How would they know unless they speak good enough English to read English speaking media?

Russia has a lot to be proud of, and no particular reason to feel bad about the past, if you compare with any other largish European countries! If anyone feels the way that gromozeka describes they should forget it and hold their heads high!

That said, I would hate it if Russia started to play superpower and boss around neighbouring countries, mess in the politics of other countries or if Russians suddenly started turning up as tourists and behaving like arrogant, snobbish or self righteous idiots in European tourist destinations. But that does not seem to be on the horizon at the moment.

In one way I hope Russia can be more influential in a positive way. There definitely needs to be a counterweight to the USA and (soon) China. EU for the time being is too split to be able make act effectively as one.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Really? But why would they care, if they live in the middle of Siberia and practically never meet anyone who is not Russian or ex Soviet... How would they know unless they speak good enough English to read English speaking media?

We all meet foreigners every day, at least in big cities. Something is translated into Russian. Search for Иносми или Инофорум, for example. And it is said in Russian media about what is said about Russia abroad sometimes.

Originally Posted by Marcus

We all meet foreigners every day, at least in big cities. Something is translated into Russian. Search for Иносми или Инофорум, for example. And it is said in Russian media about what is said about Russia abroad sometimes.

Well, I thought so too, but there was a girl called Olya who used to be on this forum and was quite active. She said that although she lived in the centre of Moscow she had never known anyone who was not Russian or from an ex Soviet country. I was really surprised to hear that because i personally know a few non Russians who have lived in Moscow for shorter periods. But she said it as if it was completely normal.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Well, I thought so too, but there was a girl called Olya who used to be on this forum and was quite active. She said that although she lived in the centre of Moscow she had never known anyone who was not Russian or from an ex Soviet country. I was really surprised to hear that because i personally know a few non Russians who have lived in Moscow for shorter periods. But she said it as if it was completely normal.

The later is absolutely impossible, unless she never left home. Moscow is full of legal and illegal immigrants from former Soviet republics, they are everywhere. Maybe she's never been friends with one, but that does not mean she was screened off "foreign" influence or beliefs altogether.

But why would they care, if they live in the middle of Siberia and practically never meet anyone who is not Russian or ex Soviet...

It's a special brand of Russian patriotism: being worried sick of what other people might think of your country, and then getting angry ("what the beep do you know anyway!").

How would they know unless they speak good enough English to read English speaking media?

You don't need to speak English to be aware to some extent of what's going on. Especially now, when Internet exists. Mass media always have been devoting quite a lot of attention to what foreigners think of Russia too.

Things will change soon and the US will not be so prone to act on other people's soil......after the dollar and US economy crashes! I think the world is soon to become a different place.

Originally Posted by DDT

Things will change soon and the US will not be so prone to act on other people's soil......after the dollar and US economy crashes! I think the world is soon to become a different place.

"Imagine, stalking elk past department store windows and stinking racks of beautiful rotting dresses and tuxedos on hangers; you'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life, and you'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. Jack and the beanstalk, you'll climb up through the dripping forest canopy and the air will be so clean you'll see tiny figures pounding corn and laying strips of venison to dry in the empty car pool lane of an abandoned superhighway stretching eight-lanes-wide and August-hot for a thousand miles."

I did not notice that all the exsoviets were exluded from foreigners. Anyway I see them in Moscow. i know a Syrian living in Moscow.

I would hate it if Russia started to play superpower and boss around neighbouring countries, mess in the politics of other countries

They are already doing it.
Occupation of parts of Georgian land in 2008 was most brutal and obvious.
Russia also sponsors political parties (and not even hiding it) and provocateurs in other countries (mainly ex-USSR).
They also are lobbying to make Russian official in the EU.

They also are lobbying to make Russian official in the EU.

как будто кто-то от этого пострадает.

Originally Posted by Marcus

They also are lobbying to make Russian official in the EU.

как будто кто-то от этого пострадает.

You just don't get it. It's a horrible, horrible crime.

Why not make all the European languages official in Russia?

Originally Posted by Hanna

Does Victor Bout get what's coming to him, or is this a travesty of justice?

Maybe Victor Bout get what's coming to him, I can not say for sure. Still it is definitely a travesty of justice.

If there is some comparison, the actions of Israel of kidnapping and execution of Nazis after WWII was absolutely much more just, fair and noble. Both in the reason and way of action.

как будто кто-то от этого пострадает.

I didn't say that somebody is suffering.
But this is definately messing in the politics of other countries.
Because there is no country in the EU with Russian as official.
No one is stopping Russia to apply for membership and join the EU.
As far as I know EU is not lobbying to get English, French or German official in Russia.

On a scale of "evilness" I'd say any corporation that is in the weapons industry for profit is equally evil and does more harm than Victor Bout did.

There is a difference between selling guns legally to people so they can use them for self-defence and selling them to terrorist organizations.
And why then the terrorists could not buy these weapons directly from these "equally evil" corporations?
Why people like Bout are needed in the middle?

Anyway - USA (allied with the current Colombian government) is at war against these terrorists.
It would be foolish for them not to try and eliminate anyone who is helping their enemy.

Because there is no country in the EU with Russian as official.
No one is stopping Russia to apply for membership and join the EU.
As far as I know EU is not lobbying to get English, French or German official in Russia.

But there are countries with significant Russian-speaking part of population which is not the case with English? French or German in Russia.