Victor Bout - Russian Businessman (?) facing 25 years in US prison

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Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm talking about. "Democracy" in action.

Yes, they should go to jail. But there's no legal reason for them being prosecuted in the US and under American law. It's not universal, and there are still other countries around with their own laws, if you forgot. I could understand if this man would have been prosecuted in Russia or even in Thailand, since he operated on their territory, but Americans barging into the picture is too much.

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Exactly. My opinion is that Russia should have dealt with him, if it needed to be done. It's another question why Russia hasn't, and there could be many reasons I suppose.

But I don't think there is ANY rationale that the USA arrests a Russian citizen, in Thailand, for selling weapons to non-Americans (the FARC guerilla).The FARC guerilla were considered a liberation army not so long ago, similar to the ANC in South Africa, for example, and received foreign aid from many respectable countries. The quarrel there is an internal matter for Columbia to solve - that country is not some kind of paragon of virtue and there is a good reason why the FARC exists, it is their methods that are questionable.

I don't see what Columbia's affairs have to do with the USA either. The only "American citizens" that would be affected would be CIA advisors or elite soldiers who are there meddling in Columbia's affairs. (his supposed crime was "plotting to kill American citizens").

Wait until China arrests an American who meddling in their sphere of interest, brings him to Beijing and sentence him for terrorism, to serve 25 years in a Chinese prison (probably not that much worse than a chain gang in Texas)... Maybe that would make people reflect a bit on the illogical and creepy precedent set by this sentencing. But with people's skewed perspective of reality it would more likely lead to a big political drama and biased media reporting.

And like I said, something like this recently happened to a British man too, and a school boy who hacked a US defense system for fun.

Here is an interesting entry about Victor Bout from Wikipedia

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Viktor Anatolyevich Bout (Russian: Виктор Анатольевич Бут) (born 13 January 1967, near Dushanbe, Tajik SSR, Soviet Union) is a convicted arms smuggler and political prisoner.^[1]

Having graduated from the Military Institute of Foreign Languages,^[22][27][28] he is said to be fluent in six languages.^[29] These include Persian and Esperanto, which he mastered already at the age of 12,^[30][31] and in the early 1980's he was member of the Esperanto club in Dushanbe.^[32] Bout's personal website states that he served in the Soviet Army as a translator, holding the rank of Lieutenant.^[6]

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Language genius and Esperanto club member turns terrorist arms dealer... how sad. He'll be a broken man when he gets out of prison in the USA. Assuming he even survives. I guess it's another fallout of the events in the 90s, in the ex USSR. Under different circumstances he would probably have been a really nice and legitimately accomplished person.

His main crime seems to be that he ignored existing embargos and shipped equipment to whoever could pay. His main fortune was made from shipping and not from weapons sale.

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Originally Posted by Eric C.

So, globalization has come, but you still insist on only obeying laws issued by a certain country? Sounds a bit contradictory, don't you think?

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I guess I was not very clear, but don't really see a contradiction. Globalization has come, and you have to tweak some old concepts and situations, depicted in old books, so they could be applied to today's world. But it does not mean that one country law should prevail over everything, when it's not legally stipulated by all the players.

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And even if so, how come some "newly invented" local laws will be wiser than some "newly invented" foreign laws in distinguishing between a terrorist and a person who just looks like a terrorist or anything?

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First, who'd be a judge of that? Second, it does not matter what's wiser! It's LAW. And, globalization or not, there are still borders and citizens to whom certain laws are applied, and certain laws are not.

This thread ties back to the Cold War thread and how Americans believe in manifest destiny. We have it taught to us from an early age that we are right and everyone else is not so much wrong, but needs saving. It is hard for us to understand why you would not like to have the same type of things we have and live the way we do. Our way has to be so much better than yours. We just can't fathom the idea of anyone not wanting the same system that we have. The same freedoms that we have. To be able to worship freely, live wherever you want to, come and go as you please, go to whatever school you want to and study whatever you want to study, say pretty much whatever you want and not live in fear. Now that of course is an over simplification of things but for the most part it is true.

I remember the first time we went to El Salvador and the girls were old enough to comprehend and could not understand why the people had dirt floors, no beds, hardly any food and yet, the people were happy. This made no sense to them. The next time they went back, they just slipped right back into El Salvador mode and it wasn't as hard for them. They knew what to expect. The girls have the best memories of time spent in El Salvador because they had less rules and worries about everyday life there. It also gave them a better perspective about the world. It would be a shame if one day we went back and it had turned into just another town like any American town.

Our laws are not the same as other countries but that has not stopped us from trying save people and make the world a better place as "we" see it. We tried with SOPA and the world let it be known rather quickly that the US does not own the Internet. Apparently we are now trying to save the world by protecting it from people who are selling weapons or parts to other nations or people that we believe are up to no good. It is in our nature to do this. It is hard to change a culture that has been going on since the start. It is in our DNA so to speak.

I am not saying that what we are doing is right, just trying to possibly explain why it is we do it and why so many Americans might feel it is what we should be doing.

I guess the problem with this guy that he is most likely weapon smuggler in he can't be sued by Russian law because there is nothing criminal in he's actions when he is on the territory of Russia
"plotting to kill American citizens" - this is not a criminal charge by Russian law and US officials know that
What probably going to happen - some Americans guys will get "randomly" arrested in Russia, maybe not know maybe in a year and then an exchange will be made

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Originally Posted by Doomer

What probably going to happen - some Americans guys will get "randomly" arrested in Russia, maybe not know maybe in a year and then an exchange will be made

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Frankly, I wouldn't think it was such a pity if that happened. This has got to stop. The USA has to get the message - it is not ok to kidnap citizens of other countries for crimes comitted in other countries, and throw them in prison for 25 years for political reasons.

That is the sort of thing that even the most villified enemies of the USA, like Cuba, Iran and North Korea only stretch to on rare occassions. It is really apalling - the crime and the criminal had nothing to do with the USA.

The arrest would have been justified if Bout was American, or if he was carrying out his activities in the USA. Neither was the case.

Here is an equivalent scenario if it was played out with other countries:
Iran kidnaps an sales director of Bofors, a Swedish weapons maker. He is thrown in prison in Iran for 25 years. The motivation is given as "he was plotting to kill Iranian citizens". Bofors sells weapons to Saudi Arabia which has been propping up the inpopular regime in Bahrain. Iran on the other hand, supports the uprising in Bahrain and has agents there, similar to the American agents in Columbia. It's a like-for-like scenario. But I doubt even Iran would do a thing like that.

How much is Bout's nationality related to this? What would have happened if he had been an EU nationality, British in particular, Australian... or Chinese?

And arresting him will not change anything. Victor Bout was "recycling" old weapons, there is any number of corporations peddling brand new and much more efficient weapons then the ones he was using. On a scale of "evilness" I'd say any corporation that is in the weapons industry for profit is equally evil and does more harm than Victor Bout did.

While reading comments in this thread I changed my view on this. At first I did not care much, but everything taken into consideration, I now do. And btw, I liked Rockzmom's comment. I realise that most Americans don't reflect on this type of stuff at all, or they just make the assumption that she outlined, or they accept the version of events as presented in US media.

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I realise that most Americans don't reflect on this type of stuff at all, or they just make the assumption that she outlined, or they accept the version of events as presented in US media.

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I'd say more. The "Russians" (i.e. soviet people) were the same in those times. "We are big, we can, it makes sense. Therefore, we will do ..." The way of thinking changes, when your country turns into smaller , non-powerful one.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

And arresting him will not change anything. Victor Bout was "recycling" old weapons, there is any number of corporations peddling brand new and much more efficient weapons then the ones he was using. On a scale of "evilness" I'd say any corporation that is in the weapons industry for profit is equally evil and does more harm than Victor Bout did.

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There is a chance that he is a wrong guy in a wrong place
And maybe Russian officials just set him up to hide the truth

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Originally Posted by maxmixiv

I'd say more. The "Russians" (i.e. soviet people) were the same in those times. "We are big, we can, it makes sense. Therefore, we will do ..." The way of thinking changes, when your country turns into smaller , non-powerful one.

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I did not have a lot to do with Russia in Soviet times, but I did visit Leningrad while the USSR still existed. I definitely did not get the impression that people had some kind of superpower superiority complex! They were basically nice but a bit standoffish and reserved. Both with my family, and later with my choir group, we were treated like aliens from outer space, essentially.

My impression is that Russians are quite philosophical and cynical, about politics both past and present. And that they miss the "feelgood" aspects of the USSR as an empire, I mean, the good positive things that nobody could argue were negative, such as good sports programs, supporting rural areas and improving living standards in Central Asia.

If you compare with the UK which used to have a large empire, people there swing from a *very* superior attitude towards other Europeans, the EU and certain ex colonial countries... to total self hatred for certain things that were done during colonial times, that they are rightfully ashamed of now. And extreme deference for the USA. It's almost as if the UK quite knowingly being the lapdog of the USA now, is some kind of punishment for messing up the empire.. Many Brits that (somewhat arrogantly) feel totally superior to Americans in terms of culture and education nevertheless that following the USA politically is the right thing to do. The Daily Mail reflects this viewpoint.

I think, with Russia things are a bit more similar to the USA: People can live their entire life there and not have any contact with foreigners, and perhaps they generally don't reflect much on how foreigners might percieve them or their country. But unlike Americans, Russians had big and dramatic changes taking place in their country, and were forced to question everything they believed in or at least took for granted. This never happened in the USA.

For the record I couldn't say that most Americans that I personally know have any superiority complex either. But all Americans I hae known well have been expats, not typical people. Likewise the Russians here, are probably not that representative of Russians in general - I mean, some are expats and some are very talented language learners.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

I think, with Russia things are a bit more similar to the USA: People can live their entire life there and not have any contact with foreigners, and perhaps they generally don't reflect much on how foreigners might percieve them or their country.

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I think it's almost direct opposite. Russians care too much about what people from other countries think, and that's a tragedy of the nation. They may say "We don't care", but it's more of presenting a strong facade. Combined with an overall negative attitude towards Russia, it leads to people feeling constantly underappreciated and misunderstood, putting them into perpetual defensive position. It was very much like that in the USSR too, except that official media generally lulled people into believing that all decent foreigners liked us and admired our achievements, and only bad foreigners were unhappy (their loss, right?).

I'd say that this kind of neverending stress of trying to achieve two incompatible things at once (being a strong and self-respected nation as Russians see it, and being accepted and admired by the world community) is bad for nation's health.

Really? But why would they care, if they live in the middle of Siberia and practically never meet anyone who is not Russian or ex Soviet... How would they know unless they speak good enough English to read English speaking media?

Russia has a lot to be proud of, and no particular reason to feel bad about the past, if you compare with any other largish European countries! If anyone feels the way that gromozeka describes they should forget it and hold their heads high!

That said, I would hate it if Russia started to play superpower and boss around neighbouring countries, mess in the politics of other countries or if Russians suddenly started turning up as tourists and behaving like arrogant, snobbish or self righteous idiots in European tourist destinations. But that does not seem to be on the horizon at the moment.

In one way I hope Russia can be more influential in a positive way. There definitely needs to be a counterweight to the USA and (soon) China. EU for the time being is too split to be able make act effectively as one.

Things will change soon and the US will not be so prone to act on other people's soil......after the dollar and US economy crashes! I think the world is soon to become a different place.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

Really? But why would they care, if they live in the middle of Siberia and practically never meet anyone who is not Russian or ex Soviet... How would they know unless they speak good enough English to read English speaking media?

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We all meet foreigners every day, at least in big cities. Something is translated into Russian. Search for Иносми или Инофорум, for example. And it is said in Russian media about what is said about Russia abroad sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Marcus

We all meet foreigners every day, at least in big cities. Something is translated into Russian. Search for Иносми или Инофорум, for example. And it is said in Russian media about what is said about Russia abroad sometimes.

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Well, I thought so too, but there was a girl called Olya who used to be on this forum and was quite active. She said that although she lived in the centre of Moscow she had never known anyone who was not Russian or from an ex Soviet country. I was really surprised to hear that because i personally know a few non Russians who have lived in Moscow for shorter periods. But she said it as if it was completely normal.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

Well, I thought so too, but there was a girl called Olya who used to be on this forum and was quite active. She said that although she lived in the centre of Moscow she had never known anyone who was not Russian or from an ex Soviet country. I was really surprised to hear that because i personally know a few non Russians who have lived in Moscow for shorter periods. But she said it as if it was completely normal.

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The later is absolutely impossible, unless she never left home. Moscow is full of legal and illegal immigrants from former Soviet republics, they are everywhere. Maybe she's never been friends with one, but that does not mean she was screened off "foreign" influence or beliefs altogether.

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But why would they care, if they live in the middle of Siberia and practically never meet anyone who is not Russian or ex Soviet...

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It's a special brand of Russian patriotism: being worried sick of what other people might think of your country, and then getting angry ("what the beep do you know anyway!"). :)

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How would they know unless they speak good enough English to read English speaking media?

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You don't need to speak English to be aware to some extent of what's going on. Especially now, when Internet exists. Mass media always have been devoting quite a lot of attention to what foreigners think of Russia too.

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Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

I think it's almost direct opposite. Russians care too much about what people from other countries think, and that's a tragedy of the nation. They may say "We don't care", but it's more of presenting a strong facade. Combined with an overall negative attitude towards Russia, it leads to people feeling constantly underappreciated and misunderstood, putting them into perpetual defensive position. It was very much like that in the USSR too, except that official media generally lulled people into believing that all decent foreigners liked us and admired our achievements, and only bad foreigners were unhappy (their loss, right?).

I'd say that this kind of neverending stress of trying to achieve two incompatible things at once (being a strong and self-respected nation as Russians see it, and being accepted and admired by the world community) is bad for nation's health.

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Yes, I agree, that foreigners are often overestimated. Right method to deal with them is probable as depicted in film "Дежавю" :) Дежа вю (фильм, 1988) — Википедия

I only tried to say, that at least for me (the kid back then in 1970s) it seemed natural that KGB or Soviet Army could act by any means to protect USSR citizens anywhere. But I am afraid it wasn't so even in those days.
Now our government can only observe and blame when some Russians get in trouble.

I did not notice that all the exsoviets were exluded from foreigners. Anyway I see them in Moscow. i know a Syrian living in Moscow.

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Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

+10
It's more than a dangerous precedent - arresting foreign citizens on foreign ground and prosecuting them under American law is becoming routine. Pretty much the same happened to Kim Schmitz (the founder of Megaupload and its associated websites). The only reason US is able to do it is because they bullied most of the world into obeying, I wish there were a way to oppose it. :wife:

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I agree with you gRomozeka. My opinion here is not because of what's right or wrong, but rather because of what country should be responsible for it. I understand the way it went down, "sting op" and all that. In my opinion that's all the more reason why Russia, as one of the world's biggest powers and sometimes in some ways the biggest (space flight comes to mind, just saying), should have been consulted before anything was decided upon properly.

I also get the feeling that this is not so much just America's doing, as "advised" by those forces in the UN who are chiding Russia for not being "part of the club." I think some people will disagree on this last part because it's a pretty out-there connection to make, but it helps me understand the motivations better - unless, and I doubt it, America's security entities were actually *afraid* of Bout's ability to provide weaponry (I doubt it because he's just one more marketeer in a packed bazaar), it seems to me to be the only motivation capable of galvanizing major action (any action against Russia by US is a major one, given our history) like this one.

I'm sure a lot of people are more morally-compuncted by this news than I am; I just think it's like this: The amount of people that died from Bout's weapons would PALE in comparison to the amount that would die if US and Russia conflicted, even in a small way. So it's the better of two evils to channel Paunchus in this case - "Looking the other way a little bit can save the world," as they say.

luck/life

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Originally Posted by DDT

Things will change soon and the US will not be so prone to act on other people's soil......after the dollar and US economy crashes! I think the world is soon to become a different place.

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"Imagine, stalking elk past department store windows and stinking racks of beautiful rotting dresses and tuxedos on hangers; you'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life, and you'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Tower. Jack and the beanstalk, you'll climb up through the dripping forest canopy and the air will be so clean you'll see tiny figures pounding corn and laying strips of venison to dry in the empty car pool lane of an abandoned superhighway stretching eight-lanes-wide and August-hot for a thousand miles."

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I would hate it if Russia started to play superpower and boss around neighbouring countries, mess in the politics of other countries

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They are already doing it.
Occupation of parts of Georgian land in 2008 was most brutal and obvious.
Russia also sponsors political parties (and not even hiding it) and provocateurs in other countries (mainly ex-USSR).
They also are lobbying to make Russian official in the EU.

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They also are lobbying to make Russian official in the EU.

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как будто кто-то от этого пострадает.