Thread: Two American Democracies

Just two events:

US man, who made adopted son die terrible death in hot car, found not guilty
http://english.pravda.ru/society/storie ... ar_death-0

and

Iraq: Shoe reporter could face seven year jail term, says brother
http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Se ... 2825579744

I just wonder what Americans think of that, throwing shoes at US President in Iraq is much more criminal than making a Russian kid die in the States?

Originally Posted by mishau_

I just wonder what Americans think of that, throwing shoes at US President in Iraq is much more criminal than making a Russian kid die in the States?

I believe Americans don't think that making any kid die is good and that Miles Harrison's acquittal was fair. If some judge acquitted him, it doesn't mean that all Americans agree with that judge and would do the same.

What a meaningless comparison.

An American found not guilty by an American court vs an Iraqi who hasn't even been tried yet, and when he does it will be by an Iraqi court.

What's this supposed to demonstrate?

And I might add that perhaps the tub-thumping scumbag Russian diplomats and press who are inevitably going to turn this into a nationalistic issue would be better off using their energy addressing the national disgrace that is the Russian juvenile care system.

Originally Posted by scotcher

What a meaningless comparison.

An American found not guilty by an American court vs an Iraqi who hasn't even been tried yet, and when he does it will be by an Iraqi court.

What's this supposed to demonstrate?

It's supposed to demonstrate that democracies that America likes to show off and tries to built in foreign coutries are much tougher than in America itself or it's even not democracy at all. It means that America fails to built democarcy in Iraq by America's own template.

And I might add that perhaps the tub-thumping scumbag Russian diplomats and press who are inevitably going to turn this into a nationalistic issue would be better off using their energy addressing the national disgrace that is the Russian juvenile care system.

Can you name any else country with so many deadly issues about adopted Russians?

Originally Posted by mishau_

Originally Posted by scotcher

What a meaningless comparison.

An American found not guilty by an American court vs an Iraqi who hasn't even been tried yet, and when he does it will be by an Iraqi court.

What's this supposed to demonstrate?

It's supposed to demonstrate that democracies that America likes to show off and tries to built in foreign coutries are much tougher than in America itself or it's even not democracy at all. It means that America fails to built democarcy in Iraq by America's own template.

What has democracy got to do with two completely unrelated criminal court cases in two different countries? You're not even getting close to making a coherent point here.

[quote:37i0qneo]
And I might add that perhaps the tub-thumping scumbag Russian diplomats and press who are inevitably going to turn this into a nationalistic issue would be better off using their energy addressing the national disgrace that is the Russian juvenile care system.

Can you name any else country with so many deadly issues about adopted Russians?[/quote:37i0qneo]
Yes I can: Russia. That was exactly my point.

Sorry, should have forseen shuch an answer, ok, let's say so

Can you name any else country with so many deadly issues about adopted Russians as foreign chilren?

В России:
http://www.rian.ru/video/20081216/157332099.html

20 убийств = от 6 до 20 лет в тюрьме. Каждая жизнь стоит не больше 1 годa заключения.

В Америке:
http://www.lenta.ru/news/2008/12/21/sentence/

Я думаю, что Россия не может обвинить американскую судебную систему ни в чем.

Mishau_:
I still don't see your point. More bad things have happened to Russian kids adopted by American families because the vast majority of foreign families who adopt Russian kids are American. That doesn't alter the fact that vastly more Russian kids have had their lives improved by being adopted into American families than have been victims of ill-treatment, and neither does it alter the fact that even if you accept Pravda's gutter journalism at face value any Russian kid would still be better off taking the risk of foreign adoption than remaining in Russian state care.

There is something really disgusting about watching Russian nationalists shed crocodile tears for kids they didn't give a damn about when they were languishing in some vile state orphanage.

Originally Posted by scotcher

There is something really disgusting about watching Russian nationalists shed crocodile tears for kids they didn't give a damn about when they were languishing in some vile state orphanage.

Nationalism has nothing to do with it. It's natural that Russian journalists followed that story; because the kid was Russian. They're just surprised and indignant at the fact that Harrison was acquitted. I, personally, am indignant too. Not because the boy was Russian. The man is guilty anyway, even if he didn't want that to have happened. A father should not forget a kid in the car! So please don't say the tears are crocodile.
I think all state orphanages are vile. It was his mother who repudiated him, not Putin or Medvedev, or we damned evil Russians in general.

But I actually think, too, that this case has nothing to do with the boots episode in Iraq.

_mishau,

Originally Posted by scotcher

Mishau_:
I still don't see your point.

+1

Originally Posted by Оля

But I actually think, too, that this case has nothing to do with the boots episode in Iraq.

+1

And who gives a damn about what America thinks about anything?

Originally Posted by mishau_

Iraq: Shoe reporter could face seven year jail term, says brother
http://www.adnkronos.com/AKI/English/Se ... 2825579744

This case was not an American trial! Ask the Iraqis what they think, it was tried in their court.

Originally Posted by scotcher

Mishau_:
I still don't see your point. More bad things have happened to Russian kids adopted by American families because the vast majority of foreign families who adopt Russian kids are American. That doesn't alter the fact that vastly more Russian kids have had their lives improved by being adopted into American families than have been victims of ill-treatment, and neither does it alter the fact that even if you accept Pravda's gutter journalism at face value any Russian kid would still be better off taking the risk of foreign adoption than remaining in Russian state care.

There is something really disgusting about watching Russian nationalists shed crocodile tears for kids they didn't give a damn about when they were languishing in some vile state orphanage.

I'm not merely talking about why bad things happen to those kids in America. I'm talking about why those parents remain in fact unpanished. 5 years ago I read in an American news paper that a foreigner was sentensed to one year term in America for leaving a kid in a car with an opened window. There was not much danger for the kid's life nor probably for his health. What's changed now? I see what: this time the parent wasn't a foregner, but a foreginer was the child.

My point is how selective in some way American democracy is becoming these days. On one hand if an American becomes annoyed with their foreign kids adopted, they can get rid of their kids by just leaving them in a car to die, don't you agree? On the other hand, it is them, American democratic politicans that have built such a regime in Iraq. Why do they approve such harsh Iraqi legislation then? My conclusion is: Americans approve that their citizens can sometimes murder foreign kids and Americans approve (or don't care) long-term sentences for foreigners that throw shoes at their citizens in a country where they are responsible for the regime. I can repeat doesn't that mean not throwing shoes worth a lot for Americans than saving lives of children?

>>This case was not an American trial! Ask the Iraqis what they think, it was tried in their court.
DDT, you say as if it is not America at all that is responsible for building democracy in Iraq. What have they been doing there all this time then?

Originally Posted by mishau_

DDT, you say as if it is not America at all that is responsible for building democracy in Iraq. What have they been doing there all this time then?

The US is not imposing Western morals on Iraqi courts. I wish they were. But to Iraqis, throwing shoes is serious. What can i say?



The kid in the car story: Hey! we weren't on the jury so we didn't hear the whole story. If you weren't at the court house during the trial you will never know why he was released.

That's how the system works in the USA. If a "jury of your peers" says you are not guilty then, you are free. It is not the judges decision.

Originally Posted by mishau_

What's changed now? I see what: this time the parent wasn't a foregner, but a foreginer was the child.

No, it's just this time the foster father was fainting away very convincingly.

I actually don't agree with the verdict of not guilty, too, but all this story has nothing to do with democracy!!! What the hell??

Originally Posted by Оля

Originally Posted by scotcher

There is something really disgusting about watching Russian nationalists shed crocodile tears for kids they didn't give a damn about when they were languishing in some vile state orphanage.

Nationalism has nothing to do with it. It's natural that Russian journalists followed that story; because the kid was Russian. They're just surprised and indignant at the fact that Harrison was acquitted. I, personally, am indignant too. Not because the boy was Russian. The man is guilty anyway, even if he didn't want that to have happened. A father should not forget a kid in the car! So please don't say the tears are crocodile.
I think all state orphanages are vile. It was his mother who repudiated him, not Putin or Medvedev, or we damned evil Russians in general.

I'm not suggesting that you can only be worried about this case if you're a nationalist or that your concerns aren't genuine. Frankly I don't think you need to be any more than a human being to find this story tragic and the judgment probably unjust (at least on the little information we have to go on, which is hardly from an impartial source). What I'm saying is that Pravda has a history using this sort of tragic story as a vehicle for whipping up anti-American and anti-Western moral outrage and some more nationalistically inclined Russian politicians have a history of cynically taking advantage of it. It's their crocodile tears I was referring to. Yes they're indignant, but their indignation would carry a whole lot more water if they ever expressed similar indignation at the 800,000 Russian kids languishing in appalling conditions in state care. But of course they don't, because there's no political capital in expressing outrage for those hundreds of thousands of kids, only shame.

I was actually in Russia in 2007 when the government, in response to an earlier story like this one, tried to halt all foreign adoptions. I was there, I saw the way it was reported on TV and in the press, so don't try and tell me there was no nationalistic or anti-Western undertone. Just look at the way mishau_ has reacted here.

Originally Posted by scotcher

What I'm saying is that Pravda has a history using this sort of tragic story as a vehicle for whipping up anti-American and anti-Western moral outrage and some more nationalistically inclined Russian politicians have a history of cynically taking advantage of it.

Well, I see the way how this story is reported on TV, and I don't see any nationalism or any whipping up anti-American and anti-Western public mood in it. Really. Just the indignation at the sentence (i.e. its absence). Following the Russian kid story in America is just Russian journalists' job.

Just look at the way mishau_ has reacted here.

If you could read everything what he writes in Russian, you'd understand that he's not a good example, and that he hates Russia State as well as America, or maybe even more.

Originally Posted by mishau_

I'm not merely talking about why bad things happen to those kids in America. I'm talking about why those parents remain in fact unpanished.

They remain unpunished because they were found not guilty. Of course it's possible that the judgment was flat-out wrong or that he got off on a technicality or whatever, but you and I have no way of knowing that. If you think you do then I suggest you submit your evidence to the prosecutor who brought the case or the judge who presided over it.

5 years ago I read in an American news paper that a foreigner was sentensed to one year term in America for leaving a kid in a car with an opened window. There was not much danger for the kid's life nor probably for his health. What's changed now? I see what: this time the parent wasn't a foregner, but a foreginer was the child.

So you are taking two completely unrelated criminal court cases neither of which you know very much about and using that to surmise that the US justice system is biased against foreigners?

Get a grip.

My point is how selective in some way American democracy is becoming these days.

Please look up "democracy" in a dictionary, because you clearly don't understand what it means.

On one hand if an American becomes annoyed with their foreign kids adopted, they can get rid of their kids by just leaving them in a car to die, don't you agree?

No, I don't agree. I think this comment is droolingly stupid. You're talking about one particular case that you know very little about beyond what you read on an ultra-nationalist "news" site and then extrapolating it to reach your absurd conclusion.

On the other hand, it is them, American democratic politicans that have built such a regime in Iraq. Why do they approve such harsh Iraqi legislation then?

For one thing, the US has no say in the Iraqi justice system. The reporter was an Iraqi who committed a crime in Iraq, and so he is subject to Iraqi justice. This has nothing whatsoever to do with foreign justice systems and it has nothing whatsoever to do with democracy, imported or otherwise. Nothing.

And for another thing, you're talking as if he'd already been sentenced, but in fact the Iraqi prosecutor still hasn't even decided whether to press charges. The "harsh sentence" you are fixating on is just a bit of speculation by his family. Hardly a basis for a discussion on comparitive justice.

My conclusion is: Americans approve that their citizens can sometimes murder foreign kids and Americans approve (or don't care) long-term sentences for foreigners that throw shoes at their citizens in a country where they are responsible for the regime.

Then you are insane, and there's no point in continuing this discussion.

Originally Posted by Оля

Originally Posted by scotcher

What I'm saying is that Pravda has a history using this sort of tragic story as a vehicle for whipping up anti-American and anti-Western moral outrage and some more nationalistically inclined Russian politicians have a history of cynically taking advantage of it.

Well, I see the way how this story is reported on TV, and I don't see any nationalism or any whipping up anti-American and anti-Western public mood in it. Really. Just the indignation at the sentence (i.e. its absence). Following the Russian kid story in America is just Russian journalists' job.

I'll have to take your word for that. That Pradva article and quotes I've read from some Russian politicians elsewhere suggest otherwise though.

Originally Posted by Оля

Just look at the way mishau_ has reacted here.

If you could read everything what he writes in Russian, you'd understand that he's not a good example, and that he hates Russia State as well as America, or maybe even more.

I read most of what he writes in Russian, so I know what he's like. His reaction might have been extreme, but it's clearly the reaction that article was trying to elicit.

Originally Posted by scotcher

any Russian kid would still be better off taking the risk of foreign adoption than remaining in Russian state care.

There is something really disgusting about watching Russian nationalists shed crocodile tears for kids they didn't give a damn about when they were languishing in some vile state orphanage.

Totally, absolutely agree with that! No doubt about it. The only reservation being Russian nationalists I’d replace by journalists searching for a scoop.