Thread: Russo-Ukrainian gas quarrell

Originally Posted by Оля

Это не демагогия, а законы рынка. Какой смысл просить полную цену с человека, который не может ее заплатить? Украина на грани дефолта. Путь бы заплатила хотя бы столько, сколько сможет.

Какой же это рынок?
Если есть денег только на половину газа, пусть берут половину газа тогда. Либо путь берут кредиты. Пусть учатся зарабатывать. Можно Крым продать в конце концов. Вот это будет рынок.

I read what Putin said recently, but I'm pretty sure he referred specifically to the trouble Ukraine is in with the current financial crisis, which is worse than it is in Russia. My question was more general than that. There's been at least one new gas contract since the Oranges took control in Ukraine, well prior to the financial crisis, and I was just surprised that they had been allowed to keep as much of the pos-Soviet discount as is evidently the case, then as much as now, since that discount really amounts to a large financial subsidy of an openly hostile government.

I just don't think Putin's claims of brotherly concern fly. Russia could have put Yushenko's administration under huge pressure by simply asking for market rates and no one could have accused Russia of doing anything immoral or devious, and yet they didn't. At the very least I would have expected them to use this sort of altruism toward the Ukrainian state as a PR device, but they don't even apear to have done that. Is there some quid pro quo I'm not seeing, or do you think it just suits the Russian government to have this bit of leverage so that they can turn the screw bit by bit whenever it suits, rather than wasting it in one go?

Originally Posted by mishau_

Можно Крым продать в конце концов.

Вот и я удивляюсь. Давно бы уже предложили Украине много-премного газа за так в обмен на Крым. И всем было бы счастье.

А то и вовсе, раз Украина делает вид, что никаких задолженностей у ней за газ нет, то и Россия никаких Крымов не дарила. Обычно у несостоятельных должников забирают часть имущества в счёт погашения долга. Крым покрыл бы все долги с лихвой.

Милов ругает "Газпром": http://v-milov.livejournal.com/92042.html

Проблема в том что все газопроводы идут через них. Захотят, вообще не будут газ пропускать. Поэтому и могут диктовать Газпрому любые условия, хоть 200$, хоть 100$. Хотя им конечно тоже не выгодно резать курицу несущую золотые яйца...по крайней мере пока они золотые (т.е. по 250$)

Запаздали со строительством балтийского трубопровода, а то вот бы они сейчас где сидели.

Originally Posted by ST

Проблема в том что все газопроводы идут через них.

Ну вообще-то не все.

Захотят, вообще не будут газ пропускать. Поэтому и могут диктовать Газпрому любые условия

Диктовать надо было, когда контракт на транзит подписывали. А подписали - извольте выполнять. А так не пропускать-то они "могут", но только по праву силы, не юридически. На них вон уже некоторые европейские потребители в суд подают.

Ой, вот это уже что-то новенькое!

Киев предлагает Брюссель профинансировать прокачку через территорию Украины поставляемого в Европу российского газа.

ЕС должен оплатить «Газпрому» весь технический газ, который Украина требует для восстановления штатной работы своей газопроводной инфраструктуры. Одновременно ЕС должен возместить Украине расходы по транспортировке российского газа. Основой для данных оплат должно стать специальное решение руководящих структур Евросоюза, определяющее ситуацию как «угрозу гуманитарной катастрофы» странам-членам ЕС

http://news.mail.ru/politics/2303681

Originally Posted by mishau_

ЕС должен оплатить «Газпрому» весь технический газ, который Украина требует для восстановления штатной работы своей газопроводной инфраструктуры.

А мне казалось, раньше это уже Путин предложил.

Originally Posted by mishau_

Ой, вот это уже что-то новенькое!

Киев предлагает Брюссель профинансировать прокачку через территорию Украины поставляемого в Европу российского газа.

ЕС должен оплатить «Газпрому» весь технический газ, который Украина требует для восстановления штатной работы своей газопроводной инфраструктуры. Одновременно ЕС должен возместить Украине расходы по транспортировке российского газа. Основой для данных оплат должно стать специальное решение руководящих структур Евросоюза, определяющее ситуацию как «угрозу гуманитарной катастрофы» странам-членам ЕС

http://news.mail.ru/politics/2303681

А мне так и думалось. Эта наглая клика киевских воров всё выставит так, чтобы за российский газ для Украины платил Евросоюз. А винить во всём станут Газпром.

У Украины началась газовая гангрена.

ЗАПОРОЖСКИЕ КАЗАКИ ПЕРЕКРЫВАЮТ ГАЗ ЗАМОРСКИМ СУЛТАНАМ

Originally Posted by Leof

А винить во всём станут Газпром.

Ну разве только в Америке. В Европе всё прекрасно понимают.

(Слышала по телеку в обзоре прессы отрывок из какой-то статьи в "New York Times" - там говорится, что Россия перекрыла газ в целях политического давления на демократическую и ориентированную на Запад Украину. Хосссспади, и неужели ж американцы это хавают?....)

Not exactly. It is clear for everyone in Europe that this quarrel is not economical but political. Europe (officially at least) blames both Russia and Ukraine for that. As for Ukraine - its economy cannot afford paying the so called 'market prices' (by the way, the term 'market price' assumes that there IS a market for gas, in reality there ISN'T since Gazprom practically is a monopoly).

Originally Posted by Ramil

Not exactly. It is clear for everyone in Europe that this quarrel is not economical but political. Europe (officially at least) blames both Russia and Ukraine for that. As for Ukraine - its economy cannot afford paying the so called 'market prices' (by the way, the term 'market price' assumes that there IS a market for gas, in reality there ISN'T since Gazprom practically is a monopoly).

I think this row is neither economical nor political. It's a greatist corruption scandal, that shows up how deeply corruption has penitrated into all verticals of authority of both countires. And now it's become beyond control. What makes me think so is that there are some middlemen who made the gas price so high, like $350 or so for Ukrainian consumers instead of $180 Ukraine got for.

This TV ad just started running (at least the Washington, D.C. area) on February 22, 2009.

I am posting two links in the event that you don't have access to the actual Web site that the tv spot comes from.

Now coming from a film background, this spot takes advantage of ALL the typical tricks, like how it starts with shots of Russia being in black and white, not even that ...more gray and dark, ominous foreboding along with the menacing clouds overhead ... all to make Russia look evil. Yet, what is the commercial about? Is it about big bad Russia?

I am not making any political statement here... I just find it very interesting how this ad was created and produced and what the message is they are actually trying to get across.

Take a look...


[video:1qhv1ejk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaSNG9sxqcA[/video:1qhv1ejk]

This is who sponsors the tv ad spot:
http://www.pickensplan.com/news/2009...plan-ad-is-up/

Typical for them. Sometimes I wonder what would have happenned if Russia and the Russians were at least 10% as bad as they say we are... )))

Unfortunately I don't have any sound system here so I can only guess that this video is about alternative energy resources. I still think no alternative presently would satisfy American demand for energy. US burns every fourth gallon of oil produced worldwide. There are no alternative for oil, unfortunately, until fusion power plants start working.

Originally Posted by Ramil

Typical for them. Sometimes I wonder what would have happenned if Russia and the Russians were at least 10% as bad as they say we are... )))

Unfortunately I don't have any sound system here so I can only guess that this video is about alternative energy resources. I still think no alternative presently would satisfy American demand for energy. US burns every fourth gallon of oil produced worldwide. There are no alternative for oil, unfortunately, until fusion power plants start working.

Ramil...you are right... it is about alternative energy.

Here is what is said in the opening of the ad in a very "southern drawl" of a voice:

Now get this one. Did you know what happened when Russia cut off Europe’s natural gas supplies in the middle of winter? Europe begged Russian, real nice, “Please turn it back on, it’s cold.” Europe even said they’d pay more. Why? They had to. Russia control’s Europe’s supply of natural gas. They don’t have a choice.

Now... I showed this ad to my girls (remember ages 11 & 12) and asked them if they did not know anything about Russian or Russian's what would they think about them based upon this ad?

They both had the same reaction...

That Russians are meanies. Not nice people. Why would they cut off the gas in the winter when it is cold and not turn it back on? Looks like an awful place to live.

How sad that one 60 second spot could make that kind of impression.

Originally Posted by rockzmom

How sad that one 60 second spot could make that kind of impression.

Especially when it's Ukraine who cut off the gas, not Russia.

Hm, technically it was Russia, when it realized that no gas pupmed into the pipe appears on the other side.
Of course, we are meanies. Still, rockzmom, if you show your girls something about what US did to the world they would too think that the Americans are definetely NOT NICE )))

Originally Posted by Ramil

Hm, technically it was Russia, when it realized that no gas pupmed into the pipe appears on the other side.
Of course, we are meanies. Still, rockzmom, if you show your girls something about what US did to the world they would too think that the Americans are definetely NOT NICE )))

Yes, Ramil... Americans, like many humans, have been unkind, cruel and have done many indefensible things. While I try my best to be like "Switzerland" in many cases, I too have my mean streaks and uncalled for prejudices.

Since being on MR, my daughters and I have begun to learn a great deal about Russians. Little things that can’t be taught in books at school. Treasured nuggets of information that will help me and my girls to question an advertisement like this one.

Instead of my family seeing this ad and thinking as I would have in the past “the evil empire is at it again” now, I stop. I question. I look at it from a different perspective. I think of all of the people who I have exchanged posts with on threads here. I begin to think of Russians vs. Russia.

And because my girls often read some of the posts with me or I tell them about them, they have begun to think of ya’ll as quasi friends and hopefully will never think of you as I once did...enemies from a nation that wanted to kill me.