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:wink: Hello to every one!
I wanted to learn russian 'cause I want to know more about Russia and USSR, if someone can help me I would like to know, What are the main changes that ocurried in russia and the Former Republics in the last 12 years?...What is better the capitalism or socialism?. and what the people think? it was better with socialism or the situation is better now? How is the life (ecomical, social and political) in kasajtan, armenia, ukrania etc...Ok, thanks.
POKA
Jorge
That question will open a floodgate. :lol: Today as far as I've heard, conditions are definitely improving from 12 years ago. However, you will still find a lot of support for Communism from many people who suffer from large unemployment in Russia. If you ask me, I'd say Russia will be far better off with capitalism than with communism. She has far too many resources and human power to remain a small country in the world and is recovering quickly.
Well, my unilateral opinions follows (and them also may open a floodgate :P )Quote:
Originally Posted by jorgesoler
In brief: changes to the worse.Quote:
What are the main changes that ocurried in russia and the Former Republics in the last 12 years?...
To make comparison, people must have some idea what "capitalism" is. For now, they can only compare socialism and criminal oligarchy. Strange it is, most of the people think socialism was better.Quote:
What is better the capitalism or socialism?.
At most, they think they made BIG mistake 12 years ago :(Quote:
and what the people think?
(They are "Kazakhstan" and "Ukraina") Also in brief: mostly and in Russian Federation, but even worse.Quote:
How is the life (ecomical, social and political) in kasajtan, armenia, ukrania etc...Ok, thanks.
Questions like this are too subjective to have definitive answers.
Yah I guess it is a question that can only be answered if you go to Moscow. But to see previous discussions on this topic, you can go to http://www.masterrussian.com/1mforum. Of course, it isn't very complete and useful anymore since for some weird reason, most of my posts were mysteriously deleted and targeted.
What would a system that has the economic purity of a socialist state, and the individual freedoms that democracy claims to have? hmmm.
Sorry about Kazakhstan and Ukraina, English is not my mother language so I Typed it as it is in spanish. :!: :wink:
Ahh yes, the same freedom that gets you killed for speaking against your leader. The same freedom that forbids you from selling your own products. The same economic purity that led Russians to buy illegally imported bubble gum and jeans for hundreds of dollars.Quote:
Originally Posted by z80
What benefits were there to the average man in the USSR? Sure they had jobs but those jobs payed them chicken feed. Why did Lenin have to revert back to capitalism to let the economy recover? Why did people have to be forced in to prevent mass emigration? What is this economic purity you talk about?
And besides, I don't recall that much freedom under Stalin, Brezhnev, Kruschev, Lenin or even Gorbachev. The whole thing was a sham. I don't recall protesters getting shot in the streets and their families mysteriously disappearing here in the West.
Just because Russia is in a terrible state with capitalism doesn't mean that capitalism is bad. Its because the economic infrastructure left by Communism was so inefficient and crippled and useless that sooner or later, it had to bite back.
I'm afraid that in the US "communists" did disappear, along with a few other people who weren't communists but it was convenient for the government to label them so to make it easier for them to disappear.
Both the Socialist governments of the USSR and the "Democratic" governments of the USA where more similar in there security ways than most people in the USA would like to think. The US just had to be a bit more discrete.
Rahul: I suggest you read a biography of Big Bill Haywood, Frank Little, Eugene Debs, Kingfish, Jack London (yes, that Jack London), the Ludlow Massacre, Joe Hill, the Dunnville Massacre, the Goldmans, et al. The US has an extremely violent history against labor movements and political activists, they just don't talk about it in public schools. And your comments weren't targeted. Don't flatter yourself.
Yes, we only shoot students peacefully assembled on college campuses and spray blacks with firehoses and beat them for wanting to eat at the same restaurants as us. How dare they!Quote:
I don't recall protesters getting shot in the streets and their families mysteriously disappearing here in the West.
Go to a globalization protest sometime and see all the people just walking around and singing and suddenly the police come fully dressed in riot gear and start shooting people with rubber bullets and hitting them with clubs. Of course, the evening news will say they started it but I invite you to go to one and see how many "violent agitators" there really are. They drive around in squad cars, so you cannot miss them.
So what you're saying is that we live in a dictatorship? Good luck with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike
Besides, the fact that you can get books like Big Bill Haywood, Frank Little, Eugene Debs, Kingfish, Jack London, the Ludlow Massacre, Joe Hill, the Dunnville Massacre and the Goldmans is a proving a point in itself by showing that you get democracy in the West. You could never publish such books in Communist Russia that talked about the Great Purge or the Great Famine or the hundreds of other terrible things that went on.
Like Martin Luther King, for example?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahul
What kind of "products" do you mean? Agricultural and minor industrial cooperatives perfectly existed in USSR, and were able to sell own production.Quote:
The same freedom that forbids you from selling your own products.
:D :) :lol: :DQuote:
The same economic purity that led Russians to buy illegally imported bubble gum and jeans for hundreds of dollars.
This is the most funny thing I read in this forum for all time. Really.
If these poor russian were able to spend *hundreds of dollars* (for jeans and bubble gum), they were millionaires, aren't they?!
But, strangely, in USSR, as opposite to modern "independent" states, nobody was hugry, thirsty or homeless.Quote:
What benefits were there to the average man in the USSR? Sure they had jobs but those jobs payed them chicken feed.
If you're about NEP (New Economic Policy), it was a reasonable hybrid between capitalism and socialism, which really worked.Quote:
Why did Lenin have to revert back to capitalism to let the economy recover?
How they were "forced"?Quote:
Why did people have to be forced in to prevent mass emigration?
Beginning from 70's, emigration from USSR wasn't big problem for almost anyone. Millions emigrated.
BTW, after seeing a *real* western life for a couple of months, many came to soviet embassies around the world, pleading they want to return. But very few were allowed back (and this is right, IMHO).
Can't recall Los Angeles massacre in April 1992?Quote:
I don't recall protesters getting shot in the streets and their families mysteriously disappearing here in the West.
Almost all people, who are rich in modern Russia, must thank "inefficient, crippled and useless economic infrastructure left by communism" for that. Oh, and thay also must not forget to thank handful of venal "reformers", which helped them to seize and steal the people's property.Quote:
Its because the economic infrastructure left by Communism was so inefficient and crippled and useless that sooner or later, it had to bite back.
Yes, Rahul, that is exactly what I said. Thank you for not drawing some insane and stupid conclusion from what I wrote. How silly of me to expect such a thing.
I don't thank our government for freedom of speech, or religion, or press or assembly. I am not going to be grateful to some establishment for deciding to have the beneficent mercy to grant me what is already mine by right. Governments can only take away freedoms, they can never give you what you had to begin with. Maybe while you are down on your knees thanking your loving master for giving you permission to breathe you will take some time to read about one of the people I mentioned.
Here is another book to read. You may be able to identify with the title character quite a bit: http://www.ibiblio.org/gutenberg/etext95/utomc10.txt
Martin Luther King was shot by a racist individual, not by a government or society as a whole. If you recall, those same radicalists shot Kennedy too showing they were acting in their own will. You will find the same sort of racist groups in every country, even today.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpio
Yah but besides that, what else did you get? What was that saying in Russia back in the '80's? Something like "In an assembly line in a factory, products that work on the first trial go to members of the Politburo. If something is found to be faulty, it is fixed and given to the military officials. If it is still faulty, it is given to the public." Besides that, there were constant shortages of goods because of the inefficient quota system. Demands would constantly fluctuate meaning certain goods were either in very short supply or wasted because of extremely low demand. In capitalism, however, you have producers competing to give people what they want making the system much much more efficient.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpio
That's very odd. What do you call the Great Famine of 1932? :wink: And having a home isn't very useful in Russia if you don't have any money for running water and efficient heating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpio
Why do you think the Soviets built the Berlin Wall overnight? It wasn't to keep rats out. :lol: Why do you think hockey players defected so often when playing in international tournaments? Why did Igor Souvenski defect in Canada? Can you find me a source that can confirm your claim that millions wanted to return to the Soviet Union?Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpio
Well obviously. When the people of a country have all their property seized by communism, do they expect to be rich when capitalism returns?Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpio
Communism goes against the nature of human beings. Throughout our history and evolution, people have owned possessions, traded privately and owned land. Communsim takes these possessions away, makes it illegal for you to sell goods, takes away land plots and gives it to the state, suppression of free speach(which is why only one party was allowed).
The problem is communism is an extreme side on your value scale. When capitalism and right wing politics go to an extreme, you get fascism. Fascism leads to high unemployment, alienation, boom-slump cycle. However, the West is not a fascist society. Socialism has never truly existed in Russia, and we have yet to see it being practiced in a country as a whole. In India, there is a state called Kerala, which is where I was from. Kerala has a socialist government which was actually elected by voters, not through some revolution, and I have seen some of the benefits of it. You have the highest literacy rate in all of India, about 99%, you get many parties, freedom of speach and good social programs. Therefore, although I am not a far left supporter(communist) and I am not a far right supporter(fascist) either. I prefer a more liberal centre-right position on a value spectrum.
Rights are definitely a thing that we need to have and we shouldn't thank a government for it. But rights have to be restricted, otherwise you have anarchy. But when too many rights are restricted, as in Communism, you have your basic needs and rights being ignored.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike
The rights we have in the West, are definitely good. Although the system isn't perfect(don't say I didn't say that), it is the best thing we have so far. You cannot deny you don't have your rights in the US or Canada.
[quote="mike"]"The US has an extremely violent history against labor movements and political activists, they just don't talk about it in public schools."
You dont live here, so how can you draw that conclusion. :o US citizens are very aware of our countries history, because we did learn extensively, about these things when we were in highschool. Not only that, but of coarse, there are plenty of people who lived these events first hand.
"Yes, we only shoot students peacefully assembled on college campuses and spray blacks with firehoses and beat them for wanting to eat at the same restaurants as us. How dare they!"~Mike
You act like we dont talk about our countries history, like we hide it and paint a pretty picture. Not only did Americans see and can still see if we want, live coverage of these events, but we do not forget them. We even have black history month to recognize black citizens such as Martin Luther king just to name one.
Also, I dont thank any "loving master" for freedom, and see many other Americans doing it! I am just proud to be born into a country with freedom. I am thankful not for what freedom I have, but I am thankful that I do not have to live under communist rule, or in a twisted or depressed society where people, such as the average woman, have no rights. I'm obviously not the only one who thinks America is a great place to live; maybe you should check out the stat.'s on how many immigrants we have in this country.
Mike......maybe you like to beleive everything you read in your books and base your opinions on that, but it looks like you need to do alittle more reading. One or even five books does not describe an entire nation and all its history. Every country has some dirt, and where there is bad, there's liable to be some good that folows and vise-versa.
Uh, I do live in the US. I have for my entire life.
Sucks to be you mike.
Never mind, I still think it would be a good idea to organize a "Masterrussian.com" trip to Russia.
We'd probably all get kicked out of the country, even the Russian Citizens !!
Oh thats strange Mike, because on the last websight it looked like you were from Norway. Maybe I looked at it wrong. Well if you do live here, what are you living in a cave or somthing? You seem to know so little about present day living here based on the comments you've made. I'd like to know where you went to highschool, because as far as I know, the history curriculum where I'm from is not much different than in other parts of the US. Maybe if you hate it so much in the US, you should just leave, because you sound pretty miserable.
That was a joke.Quote:
Originally Posted by russkayalove
Really? And which ones would that be? Because all of the comments I've made are based on facts, not just unsubstantiated ad hominems like this one by you.Quote:
Well if you do live here, what are you living in a cave or somthing? You seem to know so little about present day living here based on the comments you've made.
Yes, the history curriculum of the public school is definitely not what I relied on. Think for a second about who is deciding what you should or should not be learning in public school. Believe it or not, there are other resources. Try the library. Big place. Full of books. Free admission. Check it out.Quote:
I'd like to know where you went to highschool, because as far as I know, the history curriculum where I'm from is not much different than in other parts of the US. Maybe if you hate it so much in the US, you should just leave, because you sound pretty miserable.
There's a difference between having an overwhelming disgust for the United States government and "hating" the US. If I had an overwhelming disgust for the German government of the 1930s and 1940s, would that make me anti-German? Certainly not. Same thing here.
I agree with you russkayalove and that is that Mike is basing his opinions too much on his books and very isolated events that have no real connection to the big picture. Mike, maybe as a Texan, you want your "lone star state" to be independant and that is why you support any side but the American side, often contradicting yourself.
Well when you teach history in a school, you don't tend to go into every incident. That is specializing too much in a field. It is just like how you don't teach quantum physics in high school or detailed nuclear physics. You may scratch the surface but you don't go into detail.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike
And stop saying that America isn't democratic or a free society. You have no evidence tying anything to that. You take one incident such as the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. and use that to say Americans live under a dictatorship.
Again, I'll get to the rest tomorrow. I never said America was a dictatorship. I'd appreciate it if you stopped making this kind of crap up. By the way, in a democracy the president is elected, not selected.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rahul
History is generally written by the victors this is true it is, but if you are intelligent enough and do your resurch well, you will find the real truth. Don't be leave what your government tells you, as they are human too, and will do anything to make the selfs look better, IE, Australia, Election day for John Howard, There was a hehe, Norwigin ship called the tamper off the coast that had rescued a sinking boat load of refugees, and howard claimed that the refugees where chucking there children over board, to make the australia public made at the refugees (Howard has anti immigration polices, as opposed to the opposition who are pro refugee).
Obviously the refugees where not chucking there kids overboard, and after John howard won the election, this fact came to light.
This is to russkayalove, who wrote something in the General forum, but a reply to which would not be appropriate:
Wanting to believe something is not true isn't the same as it being not true. I'm very offended by this, because unlike the people who share your views I go to great troubles to be able to back up my information. Here is something from the CIA's own website on the years it spent trying to assassinate Chile's democratically elected president and replace him with a murderous dictator. If it's untrue, why is the CIA admitting it openly? http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/chile/index.html Read about the Congressional committee set up in 1975 to force the CIA to report on all of the things it's done. It's usually nicknamed the Church Committee Hearings, after Congressman Frank Church (who I suppose headed it). There is plenty of factual information like this available, but most people choose to ignore it for their own convenience. Sadly, I don't have to make any of it up. I wish it weren't true, but it is.
Look, I never said that I liked George Bush and I hope every American president from now on is a Democrat. Do you have any evidence he was "selected" though?Quote:
Originally Posted by mike
hahaha, funny, I didn't know I could go to a local library and find a bunch of books there, or hop on the internet and look up a bunch of facts :roll: . Mike, you go to alot of trouble to find information and facts that back up YOUR OPINION, and I respect that you go to such trouble to do that. Although, to me that doesn't make you any more convincing. Anyone can find some soart of facts or information that support their opinion about the war or government.
...or maybe he allows the reading he does do to form his opinions, instead of just using the one Fox News gives him...
No, Fox News is fair and balanced, scotcher. Why else would Fairness and Accuracy In Reporting devote an entire section to it? http://www.fair.org/media-outlets/newscorp-fox.html
So, does this mean you didn't bother to read the information I showed you? That's a shame.
No, I read facts and it creates an opinion in my head.Quote:
Originally Posted by russkayalove
Yes, so why is it that the arguments for war are all patriotic rhetoric and appeals to fear and emotion? Why did Tony Blair's "intelligence report on Iraq" plagiarize a bunch of magazines and some guy's college thesis?Quote:
Although, to me that doesn't make you any more convincing. Anyone can find some soart of facts or information that support their opinion about the war or government.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2736149.stm
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2003/02/item ... 1714_1.htm
And why did Robin Cook, Tony Blair's long-time political friend and colleague, Leader of The House Of Commons, former Foreign Minister, Cabinet Member, and privvy to all the very same classified intelligence reports as the Prime Minister (all the "proof" we keep being told exists but can't be published), this week resign from the government in protest at the coming war?
You can read a transcript of his resignation speech here:
http://www.alba.org.uk/cookresign.html
It might be interesting for you to note that the fantasy terrorism/ Al Qaeda link, used by the Bush administration to such great effect in cynically manipulating US public opinion, was given so little credence in this country even by the US' allies that Cook didn't even feel the need to mention it, even to question it, in his speech.
Didn't six or seven English MPs resign in all?
Yes, three Junior Ministers and three more Parlimentary Secretaries (the lowest rung on the ministerial ladder) resigned, along with Robin Cook, and 139 Labour MPs voted against their own Labour government in the Commons vote.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike
I hope all this bombing doesn't destroy that Victory Museum in Baghdad where Saddam put his gifts from foreign countries. Like the pistols and gold cowboy boots with silver-plated spurs Reagan bought him (his nickname for Saddam was "The Cowboy" after all), or that football with all of the 1982 New York Giants' signatures on it. I think Chirac also sent him a ceremonial sword or something. It will be interesting to see those items recovered.
I can deny I dont have specific rights in the United States,Quote:
Rights are definitely a thing that we need to have and we shouldn't thank a government for it. But rights have to be restricted, otherwise you have anarchy. But when too many rights are restricted, as in Communism, you have your basic needs and rights being ignored.
The rights we have in the West, are definitely good. Although the system isn't perfect(don't say I didn't say that), it is the best thing we have so far. You cannot deny you don't have your rights in the US or Canada.
As a homosexual citizen of the country, I have many less rights than my heterosexual counterparts,
which include (in most parts or all of the country)
- not being allowed to serve in the military for my sexual orientation
- lack of partner benefits which extend to legally married heterosexual couples (a long and extensive list this is)
- lack of protection from descrimination by many employers, or educational institutions (many companies do offer legal protection but it is only because it is the status of their policies from their beliefs and not by legal mandate, and the same applies to most educational institutions)
The US is clearly behind in human rights, and being a 17 year old teenager, and having to be aware of my second class status in a country built on principles of the seperation of church and state, and of civil liberties is a horrible reality to face.
It is one thing to believe homosexuality is wrong, for your own opinion, but to prevent the legal liberties to us because of speculative and frankly in the opinion of myself and the worlds top psychologists, and medical associations blatantly false religious belief.... now that is WRONG.
The laws of our country should not be based on religious scripture.
Anyways, if you want to look at a beautiful example of perfection in freedom, liberty, peace, and justice.... just take your eye and observe
Sweden
Netherlands
Denmark
Belgium
And specific other European nations. The United States is conservatively backwards, we are no longer the leader (and havent been for a very long time) in the qualities the society and government supposedly want to spread throughout the world.
Yeah my goal as an adult, is to get the fuck out of here, and marry a Swedish man. :P
Too bad they dont speak Russian there.
Sounds to me like it's V's lucky day! :)
In seriousness, I think Connecticut recently passed legislation on civil unions between same sex couples that would give them the same rights as heterosexual spouses. At least, I remember last year Gov. Rowland promised to sign it. I haven't heard anything about it or kept up with it since then, though.
Sweden is not a beautiful example of perfection in freedom, liberty, peace and justice. What's the difference between freedom and liberty by the way? The govt takes all our money, so we don't have much economic freedom. We have peace, but this is because we don't care. We simply close our eyes and ignore problems, and then some people call that a good thing, because we don't get involved in conflicts. Not very helpful. Justice? We have way too few policemen, criminality is on the rise, and criminals get away with horrible crimes with just a couple of years in "prison". Except lack of freedom and law abiding citizens, the living standards in Swedish prisons are probably better than those in schools. I can't say I know much about the Netherlands, but it seems it's a pretty decent country. Denmark however - hrm, despite their military aid to the USA - is going dooooooown. Their f*cking nazi party is gaining a lot of support too fast, and it is really a threat. We better disarm them quickly :o
Um, considering your nick is (random)malchik, I think mike is a bit wrong :roll:
Sweden's citizens were boasted by TIME magazine in the summer of 2002 as of having the second highest quality of life in the whole world.
Okay well maybe not *boasted* (it was only a chart).
But the point has been made.
And well from reading Francis Strand's well known blog with rich descriptions of life in Sweden, it seems a perfectly fine place to live, lets consider the other options...
I can live in Egypt, and be sentenced to a prison sentence doing hard labor for 40 years (ala the trials of the men arrested on the floating nightclub on the Nile last year.)
I can live in err Wyoming or Texas and be dragged by 2 rednecks in a pickup truck and then beaten to death and left to die on a fence (ala Mathew Shepard).
Take a compliment, your countrys a good place to live.
Oh and accordingly there is a subtle difference to the synonyms of liberty and freedom (not that I actually paid attention to this at the time, im just typing it tp combat your irrelevent snappy comment that had no place within your response but to be rude.)
here is the quote from the American Heritage Dictionary of The English Language:
So as you can see each of these examples expresses the concept of freedom in a different way. So even though freedom, liberty, and license can all be used to express the same series of thought, they carry precise undertones of meaning.Quote:
Freedom is the most general term: “In giving freedom to the slave, we assure freedom to the free” (Abraham Lincoln). Liberty stresses the power of free choice: “liberty, perfect liberty, to think, feel, do just as one pleases” (William Hazlitt). License sometimes denotes deliberate deviation from normally applicable rules or practices to achieve a desired effect: poetic license. Frequently, though, it denotes undue freedom: “the intolerable license with which the newspapers break... the rules of decorum” (Edmund Burke).
But I suppose it is rather useless to use two in the same sentence, oh well just wanted to point out there is a different nuance to each.
Who has the first highest? Usually the UN's list is topped by Norway (now with its own neo-Nazi movements growing) and Canada. Other than the lack of insurance benefits and tax breaks, who cares about freedom of marriage anyway? It is a useless religious tradition that is contrary to the polyamorous nature of humans. I am not saying monogamy isn't good, but you shouldn't have to threaten your spouse with a piece of paper to keep them from leaving you. If you do then they probably have a good reason to walk away from you to begin with.
Canada and Finland are usually quite close. However, in the most recent UN list, I don't think Canada did that well. The only real social problems I have been aware of are that law does not require women to be paid as much as men in most jobs and the Natives are still on their reserved and not being helped to mix in with the rest of society. But besides that, there aren't too many problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike