Thread: Regarding Russian in the Baltic States

At least in Latvia there were two options - spend (recklessly) as previous government (unsustainable in long term) or cut spending (austerity) to keep the debt at reasonable level.

it seemed that everyone in Eastern Europe had just lost every sense of dignity in the pursuit of dollars

It is understandable.
After a poor life in USSR - where anything imported from the West was almost idolized (plastic bags, jeans, etc...)

I had believed that Eastern Europeans were clever people, idealistic about socialism for the most part

George Orwell coined a great term - doublethink.
In public people were idealistic about socialism, but secretly they hated it.

Anyway - if you lived in SU you at least partially had to be a crook.
There were long queues and deficits in shops - many necessary goods were hard to obtain.
So friends or acquitances who worked in distribution were very valuable.
You could bribe them and get the goods you needed.
Stealing from kolkhozes also was popular (my parents did it when they worked there - their pay was not great and they could get food without standing in a long queue).
If you knew a mechanic - you also could get parts for your car much easier.
This so-called "blat" was everywhere.

So - naturally - people continued to act the same way after Soviet Union collapsed.
In capitalist economy - these actions are corruption.
In soviet socialist economy these helped people to survive.

I saw some families living in squalor. I would not surprise me if these places were deliberately abandoned on purpose, by everyone in power.

At least in Daugavpils mostly russians are in power.

and as a source of manpower for jobs that are hard to fill in Western Europe

And Latvian companies import even cheaper workers from Ukraine and Belarus.
(Latvia also is attractive for them, because they have more rights (at least compared to Belarus) and they can speak Russian here)

or repatriated to Russia in a dignified way

To get most of Russians living here to move to Russia - you need a different process called "forced deportation" - because they simply do not want to go there - life here is better - most of people who wanted to live in Russia are already there.

Those who want to leave - go in the opposite direction - to the EU.
(Some of Russians I know work in Ireland and UK - and they say that they are not stupid to go to Russia - EU is much better).

Originally Posted by nulle

Anyway - if you lived in SU you at least partially had to be a crook.
There were long queues and deficits in shops - many necessary goods were hard to obtain.
So friends or acquitances who worked in distribution were very valuable.
You could bribe them and get the goods you needed.
Stealing from kolkhozes also was popular (my parents did it when they worked there - their pay was not great and they could get food without standing in a long queue).
If you knew a mechanic - you also could get parts for your car much easier.
This so-called "blat" was everywhere.

I've just remembered funny Soviet short film about beefy factory worker who is trying to steal an engine from his workplace and skinny schoolboy who ruins his plans:

Many people are working illegally (especially in rural areas) or abroad (in Schengen area there are no border controls)

Those who work abroad can't be counted as working people in Latvia.

Сама Латвия участвовала в куче агрессивных войн: в Ираке, Афганистане и т. д. Или поддерживали их в НАТО. Вопрос: у них были какие-то интересы в Ираке, или они очень боялись Саддама Хусейна?

Those who work abroad can't be counted as working people in Latvia.

Yes - if they inform our government - but many choose not to.

Originally Posted by mishau_

Особенно, если принять во внимание, что страны Восточное Европы, включая Балтику, считаются в ЕС странами второго сорта.

Ok, I obviously don't think that, or I wouldn't be studying an Eastern European language. I don't think most people feel that way. In IT at least, we know that the Eastern European collegues are usually first class.

However, in the 90s I did, for a while. At the time it seemed that everyone in Eastern Europe had just lost every sense of dignity in the pursuit of dollars... Of course, I did not know just how desperate their situation there situation was. And probably, the great majority never did this. But it was like Jekyll and Hyde transformation.... I had believed that Eastern Europeans were clever people, idealistic about socialism for the most part, and lived very peaceful lives. And then suddenly every Eastern European you meet is a crook!

In exactly that vacuum, the EU started emerging on the scene as a new political power (it became a "union") and it was time for my country to join. I was active together with lots of friends at Uni. Something had to replace the ideological and power vacuum that the early 90s had created, and for many, the EU was that entity.

I am not sure what to make of the situation now. Eastern Europeans are as intelligent and hardworking as everyone else in Europe, possibly more so, in some cases. But their countries are used as cheap manufacturing locations, for outsourcing and as a source of manpower for jobs that are hard to fill in Western Europe. This is not what my friends and I envisaged at all. But at the same time it is really good that the "iron curtain" is gone and all Europeans can travel and interact freely.

Почему люди считают, что старны Балтики должны быть чем-то лучше Афганистана, Ирака и Ливии? В конце концов, вхождение Прибалтики в состав СССР не противоречило международным правилам на тот момент, и было признано всеми странами, включая США. В отличие, скажем, от вторжения в Ирак, которое ООН не санкционировал.

Yes, I think there is no difference between the behaviour of the USA & co in the Middle East. Possibly they are worse. As stated, what happened in the Baltic States was agreed in the peace negotiations between the allies after the war, if I am not mistaken. How ethical such an agreement is, is another story though. But no country refused to acknowledge the annexation.

And in the case of Latvia, I think the bases were probably ok while they were still active. It's what happened after that, that is disturbing. And the fact that they were there against the will of the locals. Similar to Afghanistan now.

I saw some families living in squalor. I would not surprise me if these places were deliberately abandoned on purpose, by everyone in power. The families still living there are probably those with nowhere else to go. It was rather sad. In Daugavpils I saw a massive EU project to do with renovating an old fortress. Next to the fortress lived a group of Russian speaking EU citizens in miserable conditions...
I don't care about renovating some fortress!! I would like to see my tax money used to have those people re-housed and in a job training program, or repatriated to Russia in a dignified way, if Latvia is not prepared to support them.

Originally Posted by nulle

Of course - it was an occupied territory after all - local "burgeous nationalists" and "fascists" needed to be kept in check. And Hanna - you said that beach in Liepāja was nice - in Soviet Times most of Kurzeme's beaches were off-limits to everyone except military (trespassers were shot) - to prevent people escaping to dirty, burgeous, capitalistic Sweden.

Well, the situation with that beach seems a bit unclear. I was told lots of different stories about whether the beach was closed or not. People who grew up there in Soviet times talked about having played on the beach in their childhood, so clearly some parts of it had been open, at least. I think it was only a small part of the beach that was closed off. There was a very nice park and a sanatorium located exactly where the military zone was supposed to start. Seems like a strange location.

Ok back to Latvia = lots of old radar towers, and a few lookout towers to keep track of what was going on in town were still around. Plus a large military town, called "Karosta" - this was definitely closed off, all the signs of this were still visible although the town was in a very sorry state.

Here is an intersting fact. When I was in Karosta I saw a few guys out running who looked completely out of place. They looked very much like American marines although I did not hear them speak. They ran into what looked like a military complex but it has no marks to say what it was. Hm!?

The Baltic people who got asylum in Sweden during the Cold war, were mostly crooks, sadly. The first wave of people that left in 1945 were just regular farmers etc. Some were native Swedish speakers. Good people. But after that, most of the people that left were in trouble with law and didn't fancy a Soviet prison.... That was the popular opinion at that time, anyway. When they came to Sweden they could claim political asylum, and to some extent the USSR was probably happy to see them go.

Сама Латвия участвовала в куче агрессивных войн: в Ираке, Афганистане и т. д. Или поддерживали их в НАТО. Вопрос: у них были какие-то интересы в Ираке, или они очень боялись Саддама Хусейна?

Taking part in NATO missions allows Latvia to have smaller military budget than required by NATO.
And NATO also provides security to Baltic airspace - Baltic Air Policing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia .
Better question would be - what Ukraine, Mongolia and Kazakhstan did there?
Even Switzerland participated in Afghanistan war...

TVNET :: Политика - В Евросоюзе соберут подписи за русский язык как официальный
LOL

I think that Nulle grew up and went to school at the exact time when hating Russia, USSR etc was practically a mandatory religion in the Baltic states. I.e. late 90s until now.

I guess they needed a few years to re-write some school books and re-educate a few teachers, but after that it was probably full speed ahead with the anti-Russia/USSR/Socialism agenda.
And in with the pro-USA/NATO/capitalism agenda.... !

Which means that it probably doesn't matter how wrong things go with capitalism, how disgustingly the US behaves etc... Because one can spend all ones time complaining about everything that was wrong in the USSR, etc, etc.

I think a broader perspective would be better. Not everything about the USSR was bad, it had some good points. It can't have been some kind of living hell to live there, just a bit restrictive and insular - although with a sense of security that is now lost.

Also - here is another interesting point: From what I gathered reading newspapers at the time, most if not all of the Baltic states had more or less ready-made governments in exile standing by to take over... these people had lived in the USA and in Sweden, perhaps also Germany during the Soviet time. One of these countries (forgotten which) got a president who was even struggling with the language.

Why would Baltic people vote for people who had grown up outside of the countries, who did not know anything about their daily struggles and who can't possibly have been known to them at all? These candidates came in with financial backing from various types "pro democracy" groups... It can't have been particularly hard to woo people who had no experience of election campaigns or cynical politicians that make promises they don't intend to keep. It really smells of rotten fish!

I personally think the Balts to some degree have been taken for a ride by Western Europe and others. But they are too busy complaining about Russia and the USSR to notice it! For example, when the IMF wanted to force their loans on the Icelandic and the Irish, the citizens in both these small countries said "P$$ off", because they realised it was cr*p and didn't want to have it.
In Latvia it seems like they just let the EU, World bank and USA tell them what to do...

It can't have been particularly hard to woo people who had no experience of election campaigns or cynical politicians that make promises they don't intend to keep. It really smells of rotten fish!

That's true - many people who got power right after USSR collapse were real crooks and treated inexperienced voters like idiots. (Pretty much the same like Putin treats his voters now: "I and Medvedev just decided to switch places and I do not care what you, imbeciles, think" ).
Also many politicians tried to get popularity using nationalistic slogans (which are still effective now, sadly :/ ).

This situation improved in recent years at least between Latvian voters. (Most of Russian voters still vote like this: "I don't care that they are crooks, at least they are Russian").

most if not all of the Baltic states had more or less ready-made governments in exile standing by to take over

Former commies mostly took the power.

IMF did not force a loan on Latvia - our government went and asked for it, because thanks to their inept actions no one else wanted to lend to Latvia - pretty much like Greece now...

I guess they needed a few years to re-write some school books and re-educate a few teachers, but after that it was probably full speed ahead with the anti-Russia/USSR/Socialism agenda.

At least in my school no one preached that we should hate Russia/USSR.
Russian language also was a mandatory subject. (at least in my school) (now it is not)

USSR itself made people hate it - with their inefficient economy and poor living conditions. (and I say "their", because it was not our country, but foreign occupying power)
And Baltic people had extra reasons - forced russification, KGB and occupation army everywhere, and privileged immigrants that treated locals as second-class citizens.

In 1940 - there were ~200 000 Russians in Latvia - Soviet Union "imported" 700 000 more during soviet times making Latvians almost minority in our own country - another reason to hate USSR.
Imagine that someone imported 4 000 000 foreigners in Sweden against wishes of Swedish people and made their language first official in Sweden.
Or imagine that in Russia someone imported 80 000 000 Chinese and made Chinese language official in Russia.

But anyway - Hanna - what are you trying to say?
That Latvia is a failed state and we cannot govern it properly?
And that we should just give up and ask Russia to incorporate us once again?

nulle, Latvia was alway a political prostitute
Look up history
XII-XVI centuries. Latvia was invaded by crusaders and ancient Germany considered Latvia as a part of their orders. Natives were turned into slaves
XIV-XVIII centuries. Latvia is a part of Poland and Sweden, divided in half
XVIII-XX centuries. Latvia is a part of Russian Empire. By that type Latvia already been Russian and Russian people considered Latvia as part of their land. Руссо-Балт

In the World War I Latvia gets occupied by Germans. Germany considered Latvia as United Baltic Duchy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The first time when Latvia actually tries to get independent is a year 1918 - Latvian War of Independence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. By that time Russia is in civil war
Imperial Russia is on Latvian side which automatically makes Latvia an enemy to new Bolshevik RSFSR government
And actually RSFSR finally agrees on Latvian independence - Latvian–Soviet Peace Treaty - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As you probably would hate to accept, without Russia, Latvia would never have any chance to be independent

Right now Latvia is selling itself to stronger allies. I guess old habits die hard

Good response Nulle!
And no, I do not think that you "should just give up and ask Russia to incorporate us once again".
Clearly that is NOT what Baltic people want. It's good that your countries are independent. Russia should respect your independence (I think it does) and the Russian speaking minorities should accept that they are minority and have a certain historical legacy to be a bit careful with.

I just get a bit provoked by all your antiRussia comments on this Russian website. I mean, is this really the ideal place to vent your frustrations?

Also, I am saying that the Baltic states, including you for example seem a bit too suspicious and hateful towards Russia and Russians. Oppressing the current Russian minority and discriminating against their language is not ok simply because Latvians think that their country was poorly done by the USSR. That's my point.

I mean, you want to be a bit mature about the past - for example like SouthAfrica is - they decided to let bygones be bygones and look to the future instead.

I think that the Russian language in Latvia should at least be promoted to the official status within municipalities with high percentage of native Russian speakers. By doing so the authorities would show respect to the significant part of the population. Stubborn denial of any official status for the Russian language is stupid, because you just can't ignore demands of the third part of the population. But the language is just one of many integrational issues in Latvian society, alongside with non-citizens and involvement of Russian community representatives in government. Ignoring these problems alienates native Russian speakers of Latvia and makes them feel like they are the second-class people in their own country. This could lead to aggravation of tensions in Latvian society and even to civil unrest.

Interestingly, recent months saw an exacerbation of the struggle for equal rights in Latvia, particularly the collection of signatures for changing the status of the Russian language and for granting citizenship to all non-citizens unconditionally (so called "zero-option"). It's even referred to as Russian atmoda in online discussions to draw a parallel with the periods of Latvian national awakening, implying that it's now Russian Latvians' turn to awaken. They've become more vocal than ever. It's interesting what will come out of it - equal rights for everyone and integration based on mutual respect of two communities or deeper disintegration of already dysfunctional Latvian society? Frankly speaking, there are only three ways to deal with the situation in Latvia:
1) to assimilate Russians into the Latvian society, but it'll not work because they don't want to;
2) to get rid of Russians somehow, and there are just two options - either deportation (that means civil war) or encouraging them to leave, for example by offering them some money, kind of an incentive fee, but it would be too costly, because Latvian population is already shrinking and the country just can't afford to lose more taxpayers and pay for that too - it's an economical suicide;
3) to integrate Russians into the Latvian society.
I think the third alternative is the best and Latvian authorities make statements in the same vein, but their "integration efforts" are reduced to absurdity and rely mainly on repressive measures like language police slapping a fine on people for insufficient use of the Latvian language at work (yes, they really have that! o_O), institute of non-citizenship, political boycott etc. In other words, they're speaking of integration, but trying to achieve ill-conceived assimilation, and fail at both. They should change their flawed approach and take Russian Latvians into consideration to build a coherent society.

Very funny incident to do with the Latvian language issue came up at work today. It went like this.

(Steering group meeting)

Global HR manager: Oh, and I have some exciting news for you: It's finally official! We are expanding to Latvia, so you need to sort out a Latvian version of the software by xx date.
Me: Oh, actually, then we have to add EUR 35k to the project budget because I am almost certain that Latvian is not an existing language from the vendor.
My boss: 35k!!!!
Me: Yes, there is quite a lot of work to add a new version from scratch, actually, and it's the same price as I just added to the budget for purchasing a Bulgarian version.
My boss: How many people live in Latvia??? Don't they speak Russian too? I know someone from Latvia and he speaks Russian! Lots of people were speaking Russian when I was there. How about if we tell them that they can have either the Russian or the English version?
(Clueless) HR manager: But there is a Latvian language, isn't there? The policy is that all of our employees should get the software in their own language. There is no guarantee that they speak either Russian or English! It's really a core value for us.
My boss: Well if there are 300 new employees in Latvia, then the price is EUR 150 per person to follow that policy! And they already speak Russian.
Me: The best thing to do might be to speak to the new manager there and ask what they recommend... I've heard that the language situation in Latvia is quite sensitive...
HR Manager: Ok I will take care of that.

This company is very big and successful, but the IT department is really backwards. For what it is worth, I thought the Russian idea was really crap, and I was shocked that the Global HR manager was not 100% certain that Latvian was a real language!! The right thing to do is definitely to add Latvian.

There is no guarantee that they speak either Russian or English!

Actually I haven't met any Latvian that don't understand at least one of them.
Everyone that works in IT industry in Latvia know English.
And I don't really care about localized versions - a lot of IT terms lack a proper translation - and our linguists usually come up with new words that sound funny or retarded.

all your antiRussia comments on this Russian website

If I like/know Russian language, that does not mean that I have to like Soviet Union or Russian government (especially if it is unfriendly to my country).

let bygones be bygones and look to the future instead.

Many Russians that live here do not want that - they want their soviet time privileges back.
And that's why they started this referendum that will achieve absolutely nothing, and will waste 4 000 000 $ of taxpayer money (that could be spent a lot better - to renovate some russian school or something like that).
I will go and vote against too.

you just can't ignore demands of the third part of the population.

People who immigrated illegally want to demand something?
They should be grateful that they were not deported (like Czechoslovakia did with migrants that settled during Nazi occupation).
We also have most liberal naturalization policy in the EU - you only can have problems with it if you don't know Latvian.
Those who did not immigrate during soviet times got citizenship with no questions asked (more than 200 000 russians).
All russians are NOT non-citizens.

Also many non-citizens do not want to naturalize (even if they know language), especially those who live near Russian border.
They do not have to buy a visa to travel to Russia.
So they can go and buy much cheaper fuel and other goods in Russia.
And can visit their friends and relatives living in Russia.

equal rights for everyone

All Latvian CITIZENS have absolutely equal rights - does not matter what their native language is.

like language police slapping a fine on people for insufficient use of the Latvian language at work

Yes - it is shameful that 20 years after we got independence we still need something like that.
And that some people don't learn language of a country they are living in.
xdns - what would you do if you called emergency service and got someone who does not understand russian on the other end?

political boycott

LOL WHAT?
Mayors of Rīga (capital) and Daugavpils (2nd largest city) both are ethnic Russians.
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ушаков,_Нил_Валерьевич
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Кулакова,_Жанна_Михайловна
And also - ~1/4 of our parliament are ethnic Russians too (last time they even elected one who does not know Latvian lol).

I agree with you that it's a shame to live in independent Latvia without knowledge of the Latvian language. But I think that Latvian authorities should swap sticks for carrots. How about abolishing language police and introducing free Latvian courses instead? How about tax deductions - the higher your level of Latvian (B2, C1 etc.), the lower your taxes? People should have an incentive to learn the Latvian language. It is a job for the minister for integration to devise approaches that really work and integrate, not alienate people, after all! And in the same time Russian should be at least made official in several places with significant Russophone population, according to European practices of minorities' treatment (described, for example, in the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages).
I think that the forthcoming referendum is considered by many Russian Latvians as a way to draw attention to the shortcomings of Latvian society. The authorities apparently gave them no other chance to be heard, because their representatives are excluded from the government (I meant THAT political boycott, on the state level).

How about abolishing language police and introducing free Latvian courses instead

There are free language courses (and in Russian schools 60% of lessons should be in Latvian).
The problem is with the biggest carrot - Russia and its propaganda:
"Latvia is a failed state",
"Latvians are fascists",
"Latvians cannot govern themselves properly",
"It was a mistake to secede from USSR",
"wait a bit and you will receive citizenship and Russian as an official language (so you will not have to learn Latvian)".
And open border with Russia for non-citizens also is a good reason remain non-citizen.

How about tax deductions - the higher your level of Latvian (B2, C1 etc.), the lower your taxes?

That is a quite radical proposal - I haven't heard anything like that even from Latvian nationalists

because their representatives are excluded from the government

If you mean Harmony centre - they were excluded because their economic policy was incompatible with that of current government.
(the same way democrats or republicans exclude each other in US).
And they refused to sign government declaration, which contained things like:
"All government parties recognize that Latvia was unlawfully occupied by Soviet Union"
"Latvian should be only official language in Latvia"
In 2010 they also had to agree on similar declaration - and they refused.

The authorities apparently gave them no other chance to be heard

10 000 citizens can submit any bill to the parliament.

Originally Posted by nulle

There are free language courses (and in Russian schools 60% of lessons should be in Latvian).

I've just read that there were free (except for the schoolchildren and the unemployed) Latvian language courses in Riga in late 2011, and people are invited to sign up for similar courses scheduled for 2012. These courses are funded with Riga's money, so it's not a nationwide initiative. In online discussions Russian Latvians welcome this decision and regret that there were no such free courses for the last 20 years (!). Are they mistaken?

Originally Posted by nulle

"It was a mistake to secede from USSR",
"wait a bit and you will receive citizenship and Russian as an official language (so you will not have to learn Latvian)".
And open border with Russia for non-citizens also is a good reason remain non-citizen.

There are also some non-citizens with a firm stance against naturalization despite having sufficient knowledge of Latvian to pass the exams.
They just find it offensive that they were not granted citizenship without any questions after living in the country for 50-60 years and even voting for Latvian independence in 1991 (yes, many Russian Latvians actually voted for free democratic Latvia, and they couldn't imagine at the time that they would have to earn their citizenship afterwards)!


What about language inspections - it is a very sensitive issue from the Russian Latvians' point of view. Some people complain that officers asked them embarrassing questions about their descent. Also they say that Russian businessmen in Latvia tend not to hire native Latvians because they may file a complaint about insufficient use of the Latvian language at work. Clearly language police is perceived by Russian Latvians as an offensive force, and they unanimously agree that the authorities should better spend taxpayers' money on popularization of the Latvian language instead. Love cannot be forced.

And what about privileges - I've heard about one particular privilege that Latvians had in Russia during Soviet times. They could enroll in the topmost universities (like MSU in Moscow) competing only with their fellow Latvians (there were reserved places for different ethnic minorities from across the Soviet Union), whereas Russians had no such special treatment. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Mixture of attempts to look democratic and with ethnical dictatorship.

Unlike Russia - Latvia is democratic. Election rigging like in Russia is simply unthinkable here.
And if there is ethnical dictatorship - why Russians better stay here and not move to Russia? (even those who live near the border - they could move only couple of kilometers (less than 100) and be in Russia)
Some even apply for Russian citizenship to get Russian pension (age of retirement is lower in Russia), but still stay here...

Everyone realises that the people in question were either moved to Latvia for work- perhaps not even according to their own preference, but as a work posting. Others read information by the perfectly legal (at the time) state saying "Move to Latvia - lots of opportunities... " etc. and they heeded it in good faith. It is not fair to call them "illegal immigrants today".

Yes, and that's why we gave them permanent residence permits and allowed them to stay here. (Unlike some Central-Asian republics which started to simply lynch Russian immigrants and throw them out of their homes (Tajikistan) )
We understand that many of them did not even know that Baltics was occupied territory - USSR propaganda was really powerful.
This problem was not created by Latvians, but by USSR and we handled it as best as we could.
And remember that 400 000 of them voted AGAINST Latvian independence - and we allowed them to stay too...
Hell, we even allowed retired military officials to stay (only those who served in active military service had to leave).

I think it's petty, ridiculous and immature for a country to require political parties to sign up to stuff like that just because they have a axe to grind. Other countries do not require political parties to agree to statements of this nature.

Country did not require them to sign up.
Other political parties (who had majority) required them.
And this "stuff like that" are foundations of Latvia - party that does not respect them have no place in government - don't care that they claim to represent Latvia's Russian population (they are not representing - Russians join and vote for other parties too).
There is huge difference between -
"Latvia declared independence in 1918 and was unlawfully occupied by USSR and later - in 1990 restored independence"
"Latvia voluntarily joined USSR in 1940 and ceased to exist, in 1990 a new country called Latvia seceded from USSR and declared independence".
Latvians and most of our political parties (regardless of ideology) and Western world agrees to first version.
Russia and Harmony Centre agrees to second.
These two views are not compatible and there is not anything to discuss about them.

Nils is not a Russian name.... ? It's common in Scandinavia, maybe Baltic states too.. Maybe he's of mixed parentage.

He says that his nationality is Russian and he is former non-citizen.
I, personally don't like him, not because he's Russian, but because he is wasting my tax money on unnecessary shit...
And also because he says that Latvian should be the only oficial alnguage, but at he same time he also went and signed this petition for russian to be official.