Thread: Regarding Russian in the Baltic States

Originally Posted by nulle

Soviet long term goal was to make russian speaking "soviet nation".

No it's your wishful thinking. Soviet long term goal was totally different. "A spectre is haunting Europe-the spectre of Communism" - the author is?
Please read some history books first in order not to seem so ignorant. You could start with Second International for instance, though I don't think you'll ever bother -- much easier to throw uneducated inventions here.

Originally Posted by mishau_

"A spectre is haunting Europe-

I think Latvians would rather give their whole country to the USA as a vassal state and sell themselves as slaves to international capitalism, than read a single word written by that particular author, or even look at the front page of the book in question...

Originally Posted by Hanna

I think Latvians would rather give their whole country to the USA as a vassal state and sell themselves as slaves to international capitalism, than read a single word written by that particular author, or even look at the front page of the book in question...

In the nowaday world, those who are not "slaves of international capitalism" are slaves of hunger, thirst and cold weather. It's good and very convenient to speak out on how evil those corporations and businesses are while you in fact use them everyday to maintain the basics of your life. Go move to a third world country and live on up to $3 a day, then you can say how much you enjoy being out of the "big greedy filthy capitalism".

ss_galichina.jpg

Mishau - looks like you do not like Putin - but you are repeating his propaganda here...

Only "master race" were Russians not Germans

That's why the Soviet Union was ruled by a Georgian for many years.

I am almost certain that the Soviet Union made a very big issue out of promoting the idea that it was a union of quite different states.

And to say that the USSR was fascist like is just crazy talk - nobody hated fascism more.

I think the USSr actually tried to make a point out of recognizing the local countries.
I remember it from watching some kids stuff from there in my childhood and I found it very fascinating to have a massive country that was made up of different peoples. My country was not like that - everyone was the same back then. Remember watching programs with Soviet kids in national costumes etc -- I had a big fascination for such costumes as a child so I still remember it to this day. Something about a puppet that visited children across the USSR. And there was talk about "we are a big family" and lots of idealistic concepts like that.

Perhaps it was the Russians that had the last word, and Russian language used as the main language, but it definitely seemed like the tried to value all the different cultures and teach kids about it. At any rate, lots of other countries have done a much worse job of it.

It would be interesting with a thread about minority people in Russia, for example. I still find the idea of one country-many nationalities very fascinating.

Perhaps it was the Russians that had the last word

No.

and Russian language used as the main language

Yes. There had to be a common language, Russian was bigger than all the other taken together. But other languages were supported.

I think Latvians would rather give their whole country to the USA as a vassal state and sell themselves as slaves to international capitalism

They have already done it.

I am currently a slave to international capitalism, but under decidedly better conditions than those that manufacture the goods that my employer sells. They work in Bangladesh and similar places for a few dollars a day. Should I be satisfied with the unfairness of that?
With pollution, greed and exploitation?
I choose the red pill!

Ok, just to give an example that's relevant, and an alternative. People in the USSR for example, did not work international corporations and they had an acceptable standard of living for a few decades, as far as I know.
Even though they were not rich, they were also relatively free from worries about job and housing, I think. They had free healthcare, good education and decent holidays. That's more than many in the USA, for example.

What if that had ended differently and they would have continued to improve their standard of living like in the 1960s? It is not entirely unfeasible. With better leadership, that might have happened.

Giving up and giving in to corporations and international capitalism is not the only option. T
There are alternative movements today - ecological, religious etc.
We do not have to be slaves to capitalism.

And what happened with the Latvians and the other Balts the minute the USSR disintegrated? Every corporation in Scandinavia cooked up an idea of how to profit from the new situation and the fact that the Balts were in really dire straits. And the Germans too.
Cheap textile production, foreigners bought their property there for bargain prices, outsourcing of programming... buying their antiques and art for prices below the real value, you name it. Previously honest Baltic people became crooks and ruthless criminals.

I am not so sure how much more dignified their situation really is, compared to in the Soviet past. I guess they are more pleased with the situation and that's what matters. But Latvia for example is in terrible debt, up to their ears with the IMF etc. All the Scandinavian banks opened up there, and in my opinion did not behave very ethically. Before, they were part of the Soviet Union, now they are part of the European Union. Both of these are superstates that limit national freedom. The European court can overrule any Latvian court. The European Union itself is not democratic in the way that it is governed. It's a meritocratic bureacracy. Whether there is really more democracy now is debatable.

I saw some seriously poor people in Latvia. They would probably have had a much more dignified lifestyle in the USSR. I visited Jurmala before the end of the USSR, in my childhood - it was a bit grey and no good shops. But there wer no beggars or dirt-poor people around. And I think many buildings were in a better state of repair. The feeling I strongly recall was of coming from a small country to a superpower country, similar to visiting some part of the USA perhaps. Now, when visiting Latvia, the feeling is quite different.

It's a shame about the military bases and excessive Soviet military installations in the Baltic states. It's really ugly and can totally sympathise that the Balts must have hated having them there. I would have.

(Deleted. L.)

The population of Latvia has decreased significantly, many people have left the country since the fall of the USSR. But the unemployment is very high. How can it be?

Originally Posted by Marcus

The population of Latvia has decreased significantly, many people have left the country since the fall of the USSR. But the unemployment is very high. How can it be?

Do you know why "there was no unemployment in the USSR"? That's very well covered in that old Soviet joke, "How come the Soviet people know no unemployment? Because everyone has something to do - the first one builds something, the second one takes down what the previous one has built, the third one rebuilds what the previous one has taken down, etc."

Originally Posted by Seraph

Austerity. Everywhere that austerity went, recession was sure to go.

General situation in Europe. Austerity pushed onto peripheral states has lead to slowdowns/recessions/depressions. This is a political action to shape the future of Europe.

Hmm... Sure, if you throw off your money, it will help.

than read a single word written by that particular author, or even look at the front page of the book in question...

Latvians were force-fed all this commie bullshit long enough - and reality shows that communism DOES NOT WORK.

They have already done it.

How? There are no privileged migrants from USA, Americans do not deport or execute anyone, they do not forcefully conscript Latvians and send them to war, they do not go and take away our land or property. (Unlike Russia in 1940s)

But the unemployment is very high. How can it be?

Many people are working illegally (especially in rural areas) or abroad (in Schengen area there are no border controls) and are not informing government about it - so this number is not very accurate.

very fascinating to have a massive country that was made up of different peoples

All enslaved under Russian fascists.

But there wer no beggars or dirt-poor people around.

Of course not - they were immediately arrested by police (also Jūrmala was a popular tourist resort at that time (High-ranking Communist party officials liked to spend holidays there)).

But Latvia for example is in terrible debt, up to their ears with the IMF etc. All the Scandinavian banks opened up there, and in my opinion did not behave very ethically.

Thanks to crooks from Tautas Partija (they are no longer in government) (we were not the only one - Greece has the same problem).
No - Scandinavian banks are fine - Russian on the other hand are a completely different matter.
One month ago Bankas Snoras in Lithuania and Latvijas Krājbanka in Latvia went bankrupt because of criminal actions of their owner Vladimir Antonov (Russian criminal).
Problems with Parex (also an "eastern investment") also increased the debt.
That's why "investment from the East" is not healthy - I hope our new government will realize that.

Austerity pushed onto peripheral states has lead to slowdowns/recessions/depressions.

So - problems caused by reckless spending should be fixed with even more reckless spending?

Before, they were part of the Soviet Union, now they are part of the European Union.

Only this time it was our decision to join the EU - they did not send tanks here.

Even though they were not rich

Of course - commie occupants robbed them.
My grandparents lost everything when they were deported to Siberia.
Many people who returned form Siberia later found their former houses and flats already occupied by "liberators" and were forced to live in communal flats instead. (only in 1990s they (or their descendants) got their properties back if they lived long enough).

Now I'm planning to start my own business - 30 years ago commies would throw me in a prison for that.

It's a shame about the military bases and excessive Soviet military installations in the Baltic states.

Of course - it was an occupied territory after all - local "burgeous nationalists" and "fascists" needed to be kept in check.
And Hanna - you said that beach in Liepāja was nice - in Soviet Times most of Kurzeme's beaches were off-limits to everyone except military (trespassers were shot) - to prevent people escaping to dirty, burgeous, capitalistic Sweden.

Originally Posted by nulle

Only this time it was our decision to join the EU - they did not send tanks here.

Почему люди считают, что старны Балтики должны быть чем-то лучше Афганистана, Ирака и Ливии? В конце концов, вхождение Прибалтики в состав СССР не противоречило международным правилам на тот момент, и было признано всеми странами, включая США. В отличие, скажем, от вторжения в Ирак, которое ООН не санкционировал. Думаю мы можем поставить Балтийские страны и страны востока в один ряд - если раньше над Прибалтикой глумился Советский Союз, то теперь будет глумиться США. Особенно, если принять во внимание, что страны Восточное Европы, включая Балтику, считаются в ЕС странами второго сорта.

Originally Posted by mishau_

Почему люди считают, что старны Балтики должны быть чем-то лучше Афганистана, Ирака и Ливии? В конце концов, вхождение Прибалтики в состав СССР не противоречило международным правилам на тот момент, и было признано всеми странами, включая США. В отличие, скажем, от вторжения в Ирак, которое ООН не санкционировал. Думаю мы можем поставить Балтийские страны и страны востока в один ряд - если раньше над Прибалтикой глумился Советский Союз, то теперь будет глумиться США. Особенно, если принять во внимание, что страны Восточное Европы, включая Балтику, считаются в ЕС странами второго сорта.

Would you mind describing how they are gonna do that? Exile Latvians to Alaska/Guantanamo? Take away their property? Have Americans eventually settle down in their houses?

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Take away their property?

Just destroy their property as we see in other contries.

Exile Latvians to Alaska/Guantanamo?

For those ones who will dare resist why not.

Originally Posted by nulle

So - problems caused by reckless spending should be fixed with even more reckless spending?

You are making a false dilemma. Either austerity or reckless spending. This is incorrect.