Occupy Wall Street around the world.... Your thoughts and feelings about it!

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Originally Posted by kidkboom

These liberals don't want "your" money. They want to rip up the pavement of the fast-track your whole party has paved right around the difficulties, often insurmountable, the rest of us encounter when we try to "get there" like the repubs did - "all on their own elbow grease" and all that nonsense. And that's gotta be heartbreaking to people who only made it because they were offered that inside track from the repub party.

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For some reason, this reminds me of:

"У соседа корова сдохла -- мелочь, а приятно"

Kidkboom, envy and suspicion of "Repubs" who are more materially successful than you will not solve your problems.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

As for the economic situation not being noticeable in the country affected, of course it is!

That's why people migrate. That's why there is unemployment. This type of thing happend in Ireland a few years ago, and also in Iceland. Young people are leaving both these countries in droves... the most resourceful people that is. They cannot get a job at home, or they do not get the level of salary that they want. London is absolutely swarmed with Irish people, and similarly Icelandic people go to Scandinavia. Something like this also happened in Latvia, and despite it being a very small country, I have run into lots of Latvians in London, in Stockholm.

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People move to a better place
It is not a surprise for me

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Originally Posted by Hanna

This is how I think things will develop in the USA unless you wake up and do something now.
Like elect a completely new party to power, that is not corrupted by influence from lobbyists. Stop all wars immediately and focus on building up industry and improving education within the country.

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Good words
You can probably point to the money source to change all that to greater good
The bigger the economy the slower the changes
As for wars - I don't support wars but you probably know that
«Чтобы удержать революцию, нам нужна маленькая победоносная война»
Wars already become a tool to keep crowd on a leash
I like this saying from a good movie
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it."
And a war "for democracy" is "good way" to keep people from asking questions about politics

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And when you look at what these cockroaches have already done towards the US

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Got average living standard higher than most of the world?
Especially exUSSR...

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But this country has been going downhill, mark my words! When I grew up we were constantly told that we lived in the best welfare state and one of the fairest and most caring countries in the world.

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Maybe that's because this "welfare" was unsustainable in the long run...
I like this saying about socialism:
"Sooner or later you will run out of other people's money".

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Originally Posted by Doomer

As for wars - I don't support wars but you probably know that
«Чтобы удержать революцию, нам нужна маленькая победоносная война»
Wars already become a tool to keep crowd on a leash

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The person who said this was killed shortly after that. And that little victorious war turned out to be a disaster.
My point is - wars can get out of hand sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Ramil

My point is - wars can get out of hand sometimes.

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As I said - I don't support wars but "пипл хавает"

The vail is starting to come off...

Cornel West: Ultimate Fight For Entitlements Will Be In "The Streets" | RealClearPolitics

Let's work on fixing that "wealth inequality" issue by those with less wealth THAT ARE ABLE to EARN more wealth. Not take it away from others like most likely they want to.

Scott

Scroll half way down:CHARTS: Here's What The Wall Street Protesters Are So Angry About...

"When you can borrow money for nothing, and lend it back to the government risk-free for a few percentage points, you can COIN MONEY. And the banks are doing that. According to IRA, the "net interest margin" made by US banks in the first six months of this year is $211 Billion. Nice!"

This is going on year in year out, draining the economy. The largest expense of big banks is compensation. They simply pay themselves large amounts.

The largest amount of money is taken by people that do nothing for it, paracitising the economy, draining your wallet.

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Originally Posted by Seraph

Scroll half way down:CHARTS: Here's What The Wall Street Protesters Are So Angry About...

"When you can borrow money for nothing, and lend it back to the government risk-free for a few percentage points, you can COIN MONEY. And the banks are doing that. According to IRA, the "net interest margin" made by US banks in the first six months of this year is $211 Billion. Nice!"

This is going on year in year out, draining the economy. The largest expense of big banks is compensation. They simply pay themselves large amounts.

The largest amount of money is taken by people that do nothing for it, paracitising the economy, draining your wallet.

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And who created this "loophole" that the banks are taking advantage of? The government, no?

I don't know where in the constitution "income inequality" is discussed. This is America - you are free to make a boat load of money (microsoft, google, facebook, etc.) and you are also free to fail. I personally feel that the banks and GM are not too big too fail and in my opinion they shouldn't have been bailed out.

Thank you for the link.

Scott

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Originally Posted by fortheether

And who created this "loophole" that the banks are taking advantage of? The government, no?...

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Actually this was created by the banks, and they pushed it through. This was not created by any constitutional process, nor did citizens get a vote on it.

Also, on the separate issue, there are regulatory activities governing banks that were routinely ignored in creating the financial crisis. Failure to act on laws and regulations already on the books. This has to do with accountability of elected officials, but we can't get ride of them, because the two parties are controlled from the top down by big money.

More than 200 arrested in Occupy LA raid - Yahoo! News

1400 полицейских!

"Two men who constructed an elaborate tree house lashed bamboo sticks together with twine to push away any ladder police might use to evict them.Police said they would be able to remove the tree climbers."

...

Occupiers are backing up their words with actions:

Occupy San Francisco Looking to Establish Credit Union | Moneyland | TIME.com

I admire that, but I wonder, how many supporters of the occupy movement will actually put any of their money there? Time will tell.

Scott

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Originally Posted by Throbert McGee

For some reason, this reminds me of:

"У соседа корова сдохла -- мелочь, а приятно"

Kidkboom, envy and suspicion of "Repubs" who are more materially successful than you will not solve your problems.

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Hmm.. Well, I like the quote, at least!

You've misread me if you think I hold any envy for these folks and what they've hoarded through these tactics. I have no envy - I do have a disdain for unfair play. The term "repubs" I shouldn't use: it's not really accurate to my intended reference .. some of these folks are on either side of the party lines, but unfair play IS unfair play. Soon as I find a better handle for this entity, I'll use that one instead.

I don't expect anything I say here to solve problems - "my" problems, or anyone's.. Discourse and solution are as different from each other as is Congress from a State Penitentiary. My intent was the former. In fact, the focus on the concept of "offering a solution" was applied by those who are arguing against the movement, not myself who would argue FOR it. I believe the argument was (no copyright violation intended as I know this is a tried-and-true debater's riposte) : "Sure, the Occupy guys can talk all day about the problem, but they don't offer any kind of a SOLUTION." .. A solution would be great, but I for one would not recommend that either side of this argument grab at straws to be ready with a solution, before discourse has voiced both sides and we've all looked for grounds on which to compromise.

For another thing - I didn't develop suspicion autonomously. I developed it through observation. Whosoever is qualified to term one man's observation as accurate and another's as overly suspicious - let him be licensed to make psychiatric evaluations, or else gifted with some altogether higher authority, such that can guarantee that this judgment is accurate and not merely a retaliatory strike in a rain of discussionary blows. Suffice it to say that until such time that such a declaration has been made, my observations, be they envious or suspicious through the eyes of another, are still my own and rendered valid by this distinction alone.

Now, here we breach the real question... How can one discuss the intent of a group that protests, without leaving the identity of the protesting group vulnerable to others' interpretations of their motives? I mean, almost ANY movement, you can say, "the challenger is ENVIOUS and SUSPICIOUS.. the incumbent is GREEDY and STUBBORN(can be subbed for CORRUPT on a case-by-case)." "The English Crown was GREEDY and CORRUPT, and the American revolutionaries were ENVIOUS and SUSPICIOUS. The white plantation owners were GREEDY and STUBBORN, and the black slaves were ENVIOUS and SUSPICIOUS. George W.'s regime was GREEDY and CORRUPT, and Obama's regime was ENVIOUS and SUSPICIOUS." ...Given no other information but that one group is in a position, and the other group seeks to uproot them... what I'm really stating is my own glass-empty/full view of life, isn't it? If I tend towards reactionism, I might interpret that, in the absence of other info, the force in power is correct. Or if I tend towards radicalism, I might interpret that the force that's oppressed by the power is correct. But - in the absence of actual criteria, it's all moot, isn't it? Beyond a Rorschach I mean?

As for the point I was originally making.. I was trying, and I'm starting to wish I wasn't the only one around here who was, to give a rough summary of the intent of the Occupy movement. I wasn't trying to bash Republicans and I wasn't trying to be Bolshevik 2.0.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

For Americans who still have their heads in the sand... (you know who you are... )
This is what your friends in the UK / BBC /say about you... and then you can imagine what the enemies say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqlfQhWUKNc

Basically you've been had!!! And the Wall Street Occupiers are just trying to make people wake up and take back control from whatever shady interests are really erunning the country from behind the scenes. Drawing it deeper and deeper into irrepairable debt, while China is laughing all the way to the bank.

Really, Americans have been had almost as badly as Russians were in the 1990s. Oh how the mighty fall...

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Hanna, I'm a little bit leery to mention this here without a flak-jacket, as there have been some interesting things set to flight in this room recently..

But speaking from my own experience, this is no secret and hasn't ever been. It's simply been ignored for a very, very long time. I read a magazine over 12 years ago - I certainly won't be able to remember what but vaguely I seem to recall it was some huge publication like Time Mgz or something - that went into great detail about the ridiculous, indefatiguable, gargantuan behemoth debt that we had, that illustrated how it would be financially impossible to pay it back. This was a long time ago and in a pretty psychiatrically secure America, and the tone of the article was actually joking about the eventual time when we would somehow have to "pay the piper."

On the same topic - just remembered this ---

My candle burns at both ends;
It will not last the night;
But ah, my foes, and oh, my friends—
It gives a lovely light!

"First Fig"
from A Few Figs from Thistles (1920)

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Originally Posted by Ramil

LOLWUT? Is this some kind of a joke?

• Repeal the Taft-Hartley Act. Unionize ALL workers immediately.
• Raise the minimum wage immediately to $18/hr. Create a maximum wage of $90/hr to eliminate inequality.
• Institute a 6 hour workday, and 6 weeks of paid vacation.
• Institute a moratorium on all foreclosures and layoffs immediately.
• Repeal racist and xenophobic English-only laws.
• Open the borders to all immigrants, legal or illegal. Offer immediate, unconditional amnesty, to all undocumented residents of the US.
• Create a single-payer, universal health care system.
• Pass stricter campaign finance reform laws. Ban all private donations. All campaigns will receive equal funding, provided by the taxpayers.
• Institute a negative income tax, and tax the very rich at rates up to 90%.
• Pass far stricter environmental protection and animal rights laws.
• Allow workers to elect their supervisors.
• Lower the retirement age to 55. Increase Social Security benefits.
• Create a 5% annual wealth tax for the very rich.
• Ban the private ownership of land.
• Make homeschooling illegal. Religious fanatics use it to feed their children propaganda.
• Reduce the age of majority to 16.
• Abolish the death penalty and life in prison. We call for the immediate release of all death row inmates from death row and transferred to regular prisons.
• Release all political prisoners immediately.
• Immediate withdrawal from Iraq and Afghanistan.
• Abolish the debt limit.
• Ban private gun ownership.
• Strengthen the separation of church and state.
• Immediate debt forgiveness for all.
• End the 'War on Drugs'.

In other words - we do not want to work, let them rich feed us.
I thought better of these clowns. This is ridiculous!

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From what I read on the website, which I had to find by clicking from the link from the other guys' "blog" about another website - this list was by no means a final, put-this-out-to-the-media-to-represent-us list.. Correct me if I'm wrong or if it's already been pointed out, but..

THIS WAS CLEARLY MARKED UNDER ::
Posted 1 month ago on Oct. 23, 2011, 11:21 p.m. EST by anonymous
This content is user submitted and not an official statement


.. Here's the direct link, без игр:
Forum Post: Proposed list of OWS Demands | OccupyWallSt.org

Likely you'll notice on the third or fourth line, yeah, this was posted by some guy, and was not official.

Hope the deadline on mind-closing hasn't passed yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUpXDZFtEHw&feature=player_embedded.
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One persons experience of people living off of the government:

Articles: The Ultimate Devastating Price of Government Dependency

Scott

American Thinker is a conservative rag. Tom Lifson who runs the rag is an IVY LEAGUE Harvard man. His first mate on the rag is Larry Anderson, a former conservative senator, and a STOCK TRADER.

These two individuals are the final say on what goes out to print.

Who's going to be surprised that right-swaying thinkers are thinking swaying right?? Reading this, I feel like I'm looking into a column in Guns & Ammo for intelligent intellectual debate on gun control laws. Or reading Playboy for "unbiased" debate of pornography laws. Like asking WC Fields what he thinks about the idea of prohibition.

The writer of this article is clearly bent on possessions and their meanings, on comparing people by terms of wealth, and even has the audacity to say that the fact that one of his cousins "made it" (I'm assuming he means that the cousin made a good enough amount of money to be considered a "success" in the $-$ glasses of the conservatives who wrote this, but who knows? maybe he meant the cousin made it because he became a man of god? or content with his life's work? (if so, why's it "remarkable" that he should make it?) ) despite being on welfare as a kid, is "remarkable."

Wow - WOW! - I was BLOWN back by this statement: "The Democratic Party enthusiastically embraces all who hate America. Plain and simple."

Really dude????? That's not even debate anymore - it's extremism, radical and close-minded. The only more extreme statement I can think of in this vein would be something like, "The Democrats are evil."

Where did the right develop this mindset that hardships allowed to befall others will "teach them lessons" like "nothing in life is free"? Yet when THEY suffer hardships (that they can't fix with an ivy-league handshake, a sped-through-congress bill, and taking the lunch money of the guy next to them) and their flagships, we "must have a bailout for the sake of the country's security!!" Know what I think? I think that, apart from people like our Harvard man here, who flipped opinions for a dime and a rolodex full of logrolling ivy buddies (and a skull ring, who knows?) .. I think most of them are just INGRACIOUS SUFFERERS. Their response to hard times is to attack the more vulnerable around them, and whether consciously or un-, they bend their logic (or allow it to be bent) to represent this plan.

This throws a wingy into who the occupiers will vote for?

Moore: "Wall Street Has Their Man And His Name Is Barack Obama" | RealClearPolitics

Probably not though.

Scott

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Originally Posted by Hanna

II actually think you have the wrong figure there, because I have heard something else but I can't be fussed to look it up. Regardless, I don't feel TERRIBLY bad, there are lots worse countries to live in. But this country has been going downhill, mark my words! When I grew up we were constantly told that we lived in the best welfare state and one of the fairest and most caring countries in the world. (pride cometh before fall... lol) But it was largely true. Now, it is not really better than anywhere else in Northern Europe and some of the old welfare institutions are a hinderance rather than helping people. Tons of publically owned institutions and organisations were sold off and their services have become worse, but more expensive. Trains being the best example. There are even private schools and nursing homes that are allowed to make a profit and take the profit out of the country. Not even the UK allows that.

Back on topic:

As for the economic situation not being noticeable in the country affected, of course it is!

That's why people migrate. That's why there is unemployment. This type of thing happend in Ireland a few years ago, and also in Iceland. Young people are leaving both these countries in droves... the most resourceful people that is. They cannot get a job at home, or they do not get the level of salary that they want. London is absolutely swarmed with Irish people, and similarly Icelandic people go to Scandinavia. Something like this also happened in Latvia, and despite it being a very small country, I have run into lots of Latvians in London, in Stockholm.

Greek people have already started migrating to Italy, the UK or anywhere really within the EU where they feel there are better opportunities for them.

Within the EU you can move anywhere you want, as long as you can handle the language situation and get a job. Most educated people speak at least one foreign language fluently; English or the language of a large neighbouring country. So that's how people migrate.

In the USA, I guess there is nowhere to migrate, since it is so big, there is no obvious neighbouring country to move to and people don't speak foreign languages in general. I suppose people will move to the more viable areas rather than staying in smaller cities.

But don't be so naive to think that there will continue to be lots of well paid jobs available, cheap housing and affordable clothes and gadgets. Gradually your living standard will reduce with the currently outlook.
Or it could take a nose dive if the dollar falls (not unlikely) or the Chinese decide to allow their currency to float.

Take an office clerk in the US and compare it with an office clerk in China.
Is there some built-in law of the universe that says that the Chinese person should live in a crummy small flat, riding a bike to work, while the American should live in a house and drive a car... just for starters, despite the fact that they are doing the same job and there is no difference in skill or efficiency.

China is able to invest in infrastructure, education, hospitals etc now. They are building all the insitututions that makes a country great and influential. They are creating relationships in the third world based on trading and bartering skills for resources (as opposed to waging wars, placing military bases there, infiltration of spies and manipulation of foreign governments).

Their country is run by a party that hand picks the elite from the top universities to form its' economic and foreign policies.
They are not distracted by elections or undue media scrutiny (for better or worse), and they are not hugely influenced by lobbyists apart from fairly obvious practice of bribing officials - something they are trying to stamp out.

They are running their country in a focussed way, with one goal - to get to the top, and take the people with them (at least eventually)

Meanwhile the USA is run from behind the facade of "democracy" by bankers and large corporations that have no long term vision other than the next bonus or dividient payout. These interests don't care about the citizens, about the reputation of the country or about acting ethically in anyway. Things that it indignantly accuses its opponents of doing, it is doing itself in the open or behind the scene. It has become a hypocritical country in the extreme, whereas China as a comparison has never made any claims to being democratic or having a "human rights" focus, whatever this might mean.

Don't get me wrong, I am not idolozing China, in fact I don't even like China. Nor am I speaking from any position of superior knowledge.

But I think it's more honest towards the world and its own citizens about what it's about and what it's trying to achieve.
It is run in a more focussed way that will ultimately benefit its citizens a lot more.

In the US, the huge wealth that still exists does not benefit the majority and shortly as the dollar starts dropping, it will find its way to safer currencies , in offshore destinations where it will do absolutely no good to the Americans that generated it.

You will be left with a huge military empire, no industry lead in any sector and a population who has lost its way.
Perhaps a bit similar to what happened in Russia in the 1990s.

Military might will be all that the US has left as leverage externally. And internally, the only way for the current elites to stay in power will be to restrict democracy even further, or find some excuse to stop it altogether. Since all big media in America is in the hands of these exact elites it shouldn't be hard to sell some propaganda to the people to get them to accept it.

This is how I think things will develop in the USA unless you wake up and do something now.
Like elect a completely new party to power, that is not corrupted by influence from lobbyists. Stop all wars immediately and focus on building up industry and improving education within the country.

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China also gets to ignore pollution problems:

China's Pollution Data Shrouded In Official Fog | Fox News

Along with the "little" human rights abuses:

World Report 2011: China | Human Rights Watch

This country should be followed by other countries?

Scott