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Thread: A Note on EU and Nationalistic parties, in light of events in Ukraine

  1. #1
    Hanna
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    A Note on EU and Nationalistic parties, in light of events in Ukraine




    I have to comment on this graphic which was posted in another thread before it was closed.

    There is a BIG difference between Svoboda or Praviy Sektor, and Dansk Folkeparti (People's Party of Denmark). Likewise FPÖ (Austrian Freedom Party) and even Front Nationale in France.

    Dansk Folkeparti, FPÖ and FN want to restrict immigration from outside Europe, and they are anti-EU.
    They want to be able to restrict EU immigration of people who commit crimes and live off benefits (i.e. certain gypsies).

    That does not make them fascists or nazis! They do not wear uniforms, marsch in the streets, overthrow the government or beat people up in the street, or partake in any violence at all. Nazis and open racists are thrown out of such parties and it's happened quite a fair bit.

    It's the same with almost all of these types of parties in the EU, with the exception maybe, of Jobbik in Hungary and a few others in Eastern European countries where it would appear that, quite frankly, they have never really dealt with Nazism and all of that. It's now used by some kind of manifestation against communism, Russia, non-Europeans, the EU and anything else they don't like....

    Dansk Folkeparti is almost to the letter identical to the Danish Social Democrats 30-40 years ago, a
    nd nobody accused them of being either fascists or nazis.

    The reason people voted for these types of parties in the recent EU parliament election, is because they want the type of country back that existed in their childhood; prosperous, secure, stable and relatively homogenous.
    But on the street they see poverty, criminality. The sense of stability and safety is gone. The nationalist parties essentially say: We'll try to get back what we have lost and stay true to our nationality.

    These voters see and hear foreign-looking people who appear to be supported by the state year after year, while not integrating and having more and more babies. Meanwhile they themselves don't qualify for benefitsm struggle to get a job and feel like their national identity is drowning in multiculturalism and McDonalds.

    They see fat cats living in luxury commuting between Brussels and home while debating the length of bananas, and they imagine that EU is the source of their problems (it's globalism really, the EU is just a symptom - it can be whatever we want it to be, or allow it to be).

    Voting for parties like this has nothing to do with any Nazi sympathies for people in the countries concerned. Whereas in Ukraine it would appear that it does, for quite a few people. They salute nazi statues wear nazi-like uniforms and much more.

    Nobody is so foolish to believe that all Ukrainians are Nazis or Fascists, but it would appear that Nazism has a pretty strong foothold in Western Ukraine. They marsch in their honour and raise statues of them. They idolise people like Bandera. Not to mention the roles of openly Nazi people in the coup d'etat. So I'm sure most people are not Nazis, even in Western Ukraine, but it seems they are too busy hating Russia and constantly getting involved in political unrest, to worry about the fact that they have nazis among them. Why not elect a proper statesman as a politician, instead of yet another oligarch.

    I personally think it's their business and as long as they keep it in their end of the country I wouldn't care.

    But when it fuels a coup d'etat and when it leads to people being killed, then I think things have gone too far.

    The new president in Ukraine seems fast to label the separatists "terrorists" (oh what a convenient new word this is for anyone who wants to justify violence against anyone else...) However he has not said a word of the Nazis that have significant influence in Kiev.

    I really must iterate that Svoboda and Praviy Sektor can't be compared on the same day with Dansk Folkeparti which is simply in favour of reduced immigration and anti-EU! They are also in favour of keeping the welfare state rather than continue privitisations.

  2. #2
    Почтенный гражданин UhOhXplode's Avatar
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    I totally do agree and especially on 2 points.

    1. Multi-culturalism = Anti-culture. Everything's so messed up in America with all the PC attitudes that nobody even knows what holidays to celebrate or what laws apply to who. It also creates a lot of racism that wouldn't exist if people weren't forced to live with every other culture on the planet. That's probably part of why I like Russia so much. It's the one culture I was never forced to accept and it's a stable culture.
    Anyway, the only "culture" in America is PC-culture and not everyone agrees with that. I know I don't.

    2. It's really cool that there aren't that many Right Sector people in Ukraine but you're right. They are pro-Nazi and they are in positions of power. And with all that power, I wonder what that chart will look like next year. They could do a ton of recruiting. And don't forget, there weren't very many Nazis in Germany before Hitler happened. When he had the power it didn't take very long for most of Germany to join the Nazi party. Hmmm... I see another music video in my future. Hanzel und Gretyl - Third Reich From The Sun...
    Лучше смерть, чем бесчестие! Тем временем: Вечно молодой, Вечно пьяный. - Смысловые Галлюцинации, Чартова дюжина 2015!
    Пожалуйста, исправьте мои ошибки. Спасибо.

  3. #3
    Hanna
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    I understand that regular Ukrainians get upset that Russians and others are making a big issue out of Nazis in Ukraine. And of course, everyone realises that regular people there aren't nazis! Russian media is blowing this up a little bit more than necessary. But no smoke without fire!

    There ARE people there who are nazis in Ukraine and they are having much more influence then they deserve. They were clearly involved in Euromaidan and they are responsible for a lot of violence. They defend open Nazis, make Nazi salutes and celebrate statues of known Nazis who committed genocide.

    If you look at some of the atrocities that have happened, it certainly echoes of Nazi callousness.

    If this had happened in isolation, if it had been just a part of Ukraine for whatever reason idolising nazis, or a large part of the population being apologetic about nazism, then I wouldn't care. I know they are doing it in Hungary, but there seem to be no victims, and they keep it internally in their own country.

    It wouldn't affect anyone else if it was local in Western Ukraine, and there probabably aren't a lot of non-Europeans, Jews, Gypsies or whatever living there, so nobody really to be a victim. People should not be told what to think. Nazis were not all evil all of the time. If somebody wants to quitely admire that without disturbing anyone else, then let them.

    My issue is that they were part of the coup d'etat and they are having influence in Kiev.

    And more importantly: They were associated with a coup d'etat that the EU was openly promoting and celebrating.
    Imagine if there was a coup d'etat in Germany, France, Spain or Italy, and Nazis were involved!

    Imagine if Nazis in the UK started beating up people in the street, kidnapping them and putting buildings on fire, as has happened in Ukraine. It's unthinkable from an EU perspective.

    But apparently in Ukraine it's absolutely fine,
    these people are greeted by Merkel and photographed with Nuland, and we are supposed to applaud it.

    While condemning at home anybody who even wants to have an honest debate about immigration and integration.

  4. #4
    Hanna
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    One of the reasons I wrote this was because there was a lot in Russian press about these "nationalist" parties being successful in the EU parliament, so I wanted to explain...
    I feel that Russian press simplified this a bit. Also it might interest Americans.. None of this has anything to do with Nazism!

    So, two more things are worth noting about these types of parties:

    EU parliament elections are DIFFERENT from national elections. People tend to vote for "wacky" special interests issues in EU elections, or they just ignore it.
    People just generally use these elections to express their feelings about some particular issue.

    A lot of people vote completely differently in these elections than they do in national elections. In national elections, their personal economy and situation guides their vote + practical considerations. EU parliament elections is more ideological, or related to people's special interests, or whatever questions the EU are dealing with at the time of elections.

    So the following have much better representation in EU parliament than at national level:
    Environmentalists/Green, Pirate Party, Communists, Anti-immigration, Anti-EU.
    Otherwise you'd have to vote twice for the same party, at different times, in order to be consistent.

    Plus, the Parliament does not have most of the power in Brussels. Most of the power is with the Commission which is NOT democratically elected
    at all - it's a meritocracy / nepotistic organisation. Those who got in either have friends in high places, or they passed the entrance exam and could "sell themselves. All the Parliament can do is to (sometimes) stop the Commissions ideas and sometimes (rarely) start their own initiatives.

    The EU has a SERIOUS democracy shortage - it was originally designed as a trade organisation, not as a super state, and the level of democracy reflects that... It is one of the issues that people are angry about, to the extent that they understand it. Most EU citizens haven't the foggiest idea how the EU is actually governed.... The reason I know it is because I was once involved in a campaign relating to the EU.

    Secondly, these Nationalist parties are more or less discreetly AGAINST some of the politically correct concepts that are forced down everybody's throat whether they want it or not.

    I.e. "homosexuality is great", "multiculturalism is enrichening", "you can never be too radical as a feminist", "there is no moral dilemma in relation to abortions" etc.

    Their values for these types of issues are more similar to Russia, or to European values from the 1970s. A lot of people agree with this, but there is no outlet for such opinions - so people express their dislike with the Politically correct agenda/censorship through their vote.

    Hope this shines some light on the results from the EU parliamentary elections.
    Since the EU isn't very democratic, it doesn't make a huge difference who actually even sits in the parliament, so there really isn't anything to worry about. The EU will continue EXACTLY as before, nothing will change.

  5. #5
    Увлечённый спикер bytemare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hanna;262850
    It wouldn't affect anyone else if it was local in Western Ukraine, [B
    and there probabably aren't a lot of non-Europeans, Jews, Gypsies or whatever living there, so nobody really to be a victim[/B]. People should not be told what to think. Nazis were not all evil all of the time. If somebody wants to quitely admire that without disturbing anyone else, then let them.
    You really think that there aren't Jews living in Odessa, Uman, Kiev, and Dnipropetrovsk? Wow!

    Here, read the open letter from Jewish leaders to Putin. They reject the idea that nazis are running around everywhere.
    https://secure.avaaz.org/ru/petition...skola_Uk/?pv=8

    official translation into English:
    Open letter of Ukrainian Jews to Russian Federation President Vladimir Putin | Voices of Ukraine

  6. #6
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    Such a good illustration to the saying: "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics".
    bytemare likes this.

  7. #7
    Почтенный гражданин 14Russian's Avatar
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    maxmixiv, I'm really disappointed that you concur with that post. (Deleted. L.)
    Dansk Folkeparti are just fake nationalists.

    As for Ukraine, the same rhetoric gets stated ad nauseum. Pravy Sector and Svoboda are actually similar to DK in many ways except more open and aggressive about their positions. Yet, it's not what is asserted by the lying Kremlin media and much Western sources that repeat the same bogus accusations. These two groups have negotiated and communicated with the USA and Israel. Svoboda had Israeli IDF with them during Maidan. I guess it's easier to invent a boogyman so that you can have distractions. I have even discovered that many Ukrainians haven't realized this much. I know it's complicated and difficult to decipher but some things are apparent when you look at the big picture.

    Anyway, at least some (e.g. bytemare) realize (Deleted. L.) So many here don't have a clue. Maybe stop taking what RT, CNN and other mainstream media state, as gospel?

    In sum., both sides are bad and Ukrainians are stuck in the middle. Sucks for them. What a sad situation.
    Last edited by Lampada; May 30th, 2014 at 03:47 AM. Reason: Disrespectful statements

  8. #8
    Почтенный гражданин diogen_'s Avatar
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    In sum., both sides are bad and Ukrainians are stuck in the middle. Sucks for them. What a sad situation.
    Ukrainians, including those from Pravy sector and Svoboda, are originators and chief instigators of this horrible crisis. How on earth can they be in the middle. The relatives of those who have died in the East of the county learned that deplorable truth better than anyone else. Ukrainian leaders could have easily resolved the conflict months ago should they agree to give the Russian language the status equal to their beloved "mova". And nationalists were the main opponents of such amendments to the constitution.

    Близкие и родственники людей, погибших во время одесской трагедии и Антитеррористической операции на Юго-Востоке страны, требуют от европейских чиновников заставить украинские власти выполнить Женевские соглашения в части прекращения военных действий и разоружения всех незаконных военизированных формирований.

    «Украинская власть не выполнила ни одного условия Женевских соглашений, достигнутых по итогам апрельской встречи представителей ЕС, США, России и Украины. Первое требование - прекращение любого насилия. Однако, сегодня насилие в Украине продолжается все в более жестокой форме. Гибнут мирные граждане: дети, старики, женщины», - подчеркивает один из руководителей инициативной группы, активист Евромайдана Дмитрий Филипчук.

    Участники митинга держат в руках плакаты с надписями «Аваков, Наливайченко, Махницкий, Ярема! Все – в отставку», «Европа, не молчи», «Где ваши санкции?», «Кровь на руках министров» и др. Во время акции они планируют сжечь импровизированное чучело, символизирующее губернатора Днепропетровской области Игоря Коломойского, которого подозревают в отдаче незаконных приказов подразделениям Национальной гвардии и финансировании ряда незаконных военизированных формирований.

    Кроме того, участники акции негодуют по поводу озвученных некоторыми политиками намерений создать собственные «батальоны» и «отряды», а также возникновением непонятных «черных человечков», активно выкладывающих в сети Интернет видеоотчеты о своем участии в боевых действиях на Юго-Востоке.

    «Продолжается активный набор желающих принять участие в военных действиях на востоке страны, несмотря на Женевские соглашения. Предупреждены ли организаторы этих батальонов об уголовной ответственности за создание незаконных военных и военизированных формирований? Какой правовой статус этих подразделений? Мы не знаем», - говорит Филипчук.

    Кроме того, протестующие заявляют, что их интересует взаимодействие правоохранительных и силовых структур Украины с представителями Правого сектора, которых, по мнению участников митинга, власти нередко используют в роли «эскадронов смерти». «На каком основании в Украине продолжается всеобщая мобилизация и призыв солдат на срочную службу, ведь в стране не объявлено военное положение? Сколько часов боевой подготовки проходят 18-летние дети перед тем, как стать «пушечным мясом» на войне с хорошо обученным ополчением Донбасса?», - спрашивают у европейских чиновников активисты.
    В Киеве родственники погибших требуют отставки министров, курирующих АТО - Korrespondent.net

  9. #9
    Почтенный гражданин 14Russian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by diogen_ View Post
    Ukrainians, including those from Pravy sector and Svoboda, are originators and chief instigators of this horrible crisis. How on earth can they be in the middle. The relatives of those who have died in the East of the county learned that deplorable truth better than anyone else. Ukrainian leaders could have easily resolved the conflict months ago should they agree to give the Russian language the status equal to their beloved "mova". And nationalists were the main opponents of such amendments to the constitution.

    В Киеве родственники погибших требуют отставки министров, курирующих АТО - Korrespondent.net
    They're in the middle because both sides are not interested or concerned about what is best for them. Do you need a translator?

    No reply to everything else I said? Instead, you bring up some nonsense about language. Virtually all Ukrainians speak or can speak Russian if they want. Most who I have encountered and talked to spoke Russian. Many even used it primarily. Perhaps, in the future, you should consider other sources that aren't totally controlled or manipulated by the Kremlin? Just an idea.

  10. #10
    Hanna
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    Quote Originally Posted by bytemare View Post
    You really think that there aren't Jews living in Odessa, Uman, Kiev, and Dnipropetrovsk? Wow!
    No, I don't, and I didn't say that. I was talking about Western Ukraine. Lvov and surrounding areas. The places you mention are not located there. And I am well aware that there are Jews scattered around most of Ukraine. I even saw Hasidim myself, in Odessa (to my surprise), and I am aware that Ukraine had millions of Jews at one time.

    I understand Western Ukraine, is the most ethnically homogenous part of the country though. More rural and agricultural. Of course, correct me if I am wrong. But possibly the part of Ukraine where you'd be least likely to find lots of minorities, or? I guess that if somebody's going to play the "aryan"/white/ultra-nationalist game, that's the least contentious part of Ukraine to do it.

    Not to say that I think ultra nationalism or nazism belongs anywhere in modern Europe. But it seems like a particularly bad idea in Southern Ukraine, i.e. Odessa, Crimea, and perhaps Eastern Ukraine - I understand it's quite a melting pot there.

  11. #11
    Почтенный гражданин diogen_'s Avatar
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    They're in the middle because both sides are not interested or concerned about what is best for them. Do you need a translator?
    Yes, I do need. If Ukrainians are not the side of the conflict, who are these two sides in the case? Could you elaborate, please?


    Instead, you bring up some nonsense about language. Virtually all Ukrainians speak or can speak Russian if they want. Most who I have encountered and talked to spoke Russian. Many even used it primarily.
    Hmm, nonsense about the Russian language... really? You may find enlightening to read the following:
    The issue of Russian receiving status of second official language has been the subject of extended controversial discussion ever since Ukraine became independent in 1991…

    According to an all-Ukrainian poll carried out in February 2008 by "Ukrainian Democratic Circle" 15% of those polled said that the language issue should be immediately solved,[38] in November 2009 this was 14.7%; in the November 2009 poll 35.8% wanted both the Russian and Ukrainian language to be state languages.[39]

    According to polling by RATING the level of support for granting Russian the status of the state language has decreased (from 54% to 46%) and the number of opponents has increased (from 40% to 45%) since 2009 (till May 2012);[13] in July 2012 41% of respondents supported granting Russian the status of the state language and 51% opposed it.[13] (In July 2012) among the biggest supporters of bilingualism where residents of the Donets Basin (85%), South Ukraine (72%) and East Ukraine (50%).[13] A further poll conducted by RATING in September–October 2012 found 51% opposed granting official status to the Russian language, whereas 41% supported it. The largest regions of support were Donbas (75%), southern (72%) and eastern (53%), whereas nearly 70% of northern and central Ukraine, and 90% of western Ukraine were in opposition.
    Russian language in Ukraine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    and this abstract from Russian wikipedia as well
    В настоящее время на Украине в связи с кампанией за сохранение украинского языка происходит сворачивание образования, теле- и радиовещания на русском языке, принимаются постановления государственных ведомств и местных органов власти, имеющие целью ограничение сферы использования русского языка. Эти меры неоднозначно воспринимаются населением Украины и зачастую встречают сопротивление в русскоязычных регионах[87][88][89][90].
    http://goo.gl/JG49Dh


    Perhaps, in the future, you should consider other sources that aren't totally controlled or manipulated by the Kremlin? Just an idea.
    Could you give the source of your knowledge that korrespondent.net is "totally controlled or manipulated" by the Kremlin? There are too many “pro-Russian” users that are routinely banned there when they post their “anti-Ukrainian” comments. I’m really at a loss why the Kremlin is so harsh to them.

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