Days after an apparent new nuke plant was revealed (in N Korea) we get an artillery strike apparently killing 2 civilians. Was this timed?
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Days after an apparent new nuke plant was revealed (in N Korea) we get an artillery strike apparently killing 2 civilians. Was this timed?
South Korea and the USA were carrying out a military exercise RIGHT on the border of North Korea. North Korea warned them; "if you fire rockets over our airspace, then we will retaliate." SK and the US fired rockets over North Korean airspace, despite the warning... . North Korea retaliated, as they had said they would.
The story as it appeared in mainstream Western papers was heavily skewed. Ie propaganda.
Why must the USA and South Korea have exercises on the border of North Korea?
I think it is because they want every opportunity to depict North Korea as a very dangerous and evil country, to pave the way for future US control of North Korea. In reality North Korea is just a is a backwards thrid world dictatorship that wants to be left alone. But they are sitting on some prime real estate in Asia and I think the US would love the idea of occupying the WHOLE Korean peninsula, not just the South. Very snug location at the crossroads of Asia, on the border with China and very close to Vladivostok.
I think both North Korea and South Korea are playing very clever mind games with each other.
As for the nuclear capabilities of North Korea: What a joke. Nobody in the world is afraid of that. Using nukes is suicidal and the only reason a country wants it is as a deterrent to an invasion. South Korea already has US nukes. Furthermore North Korea says it wants nuclear power because it can't afford oil and has sersious energy shortages.
What have Russian papers been saying about this?
Nothing special, I think N. Korea facing upcoming food shortage needs some action to tell its people that they're hungry because of the southerners and the Americans.
From my understanding North Korea fired missles over Japan. I also believed we warned them not to as well. Based on that we are then free to start bombing whatever we see fit. Because we warned you. Or is that propadanga? I also believe these excercises have been occuring for sometime say 40 years. Seems a little late to start shelling cilivians.
Why must the USA and South Korea have exercises on the border of North Korea?
Where else would they be held Las Vegas? These joint excerises have been going on for some time. This is not some new phenomenon.
As for the nuclear capabilities of North Korea: What a joke. Nobody in the world is afraid of that.
One nuclear bomb is no joke. And that is plenty to be worried about. Actually i dont think its sucide to fire a nuke if the otherside does not have one. S Korea nor Japan have a nuclear device. I am pretty sure if the N Korea did fire a nuclear bomb at the South the reprecussions would not be sucide. Because the US would not fire a nuke at them. Cant China would probably declare war on the US.
In reality North Korea is just a is a backwards thrid world dictatorship that wants to be left alone.
That cant be true. If you want to be left alone you dont sink your neighbors sub. Shell there people. Attempt to fire missles over Japan immediately after you just successfully underground tested a nuclear bomb. You dont threaten them with anniliation on a regular basis. Maybe thats what you call trying to be left alone...but i dont.
Furthermore North Korea says it wants nuclear power because it can't afford oil and has sersious energy shortages.
Its possible and easier to do this an not have weapons grade material. That has not been the approach they have taken. Rather they have gone out of there way to develop weapons grade material. Now who is spewing propaganda.
But they are sitting on some prime real estate in Asia and I think the US would love the idea of occupying the WHOLE Korean peninsula, not just the South. Very snug location at the crossroads of Asia, on the border with China and very close to Vladivostok.
How exactly are we going to own this real estate? Do we own Germany? Do we own France? Do we own Japan? Do we own South Korea? Do we own Afghanistan? Do we own Iraq? If anything all of these places have become are worst competiors and headaches for us.
I am not sure how you sleep at night. You rush to the defense of a horrible dictator. But i suppose you probably think that is propaganda as well.
Well then, before I start, I wan't to state that I am most certainly not advocating N. Korea here.
Still, I'm pretty sure that US owns Iraq and Afghanistan, and probably France and Germany as well ))) What I mean is that US 'diplomacy' dictates many things other countries have to live with. Some Western European countries are more skilled at this game sometimes manage to work around this 'American inconvenience' and even try to swindle back some benefits. What concerns so called 'third world' I would say that US not merely owns the puppet governments they put there but in some sense they govern these countries. CIA controls nearly two thirds of world's heroin production and still they say they want 'peace' in Afghanistan. :lol: It's all for money.
Now, about North Korea - I seriously doubt North Korea poses a threat to anyone but themselves. Who in Washington would want to have a united Korea there with further integration of the South-East Asia? Who would want to weaken US political influence there? US military would then have to pack and leave the region entirely and the US military is the only thing US economical powers rests upon right now. If they really wanted, the North Korean government could be overthrown within several weeks from within. But nobody in the West wants that. Having some limited conflict there gives US a legitimate reason to stay there, ask for funding of this in Congress, to give jobs to tens of thousands of military and civilian personnel, etc. It is economically impractical for the US to unite Korea. A little war would be even better, but wars tend to get out of hand so they're very careful right now. I wouldn't be surprised if the North was provoked (but you won't see this on Fox News).
How exact do we diplomatically dictate anything to Germany? Are you saying we rig there elections? If we dictate what goes on how then did the Euro come about? This is the prime competion for the dollar and has caused the dollar to to become less stable because of it. Which has caused the value of dollars being held by the welath billionares to become worth less valueable on the open market. Certainly if we controlled Europe we would not have let the EURO come about. The only influence we have there is the influence they give us. Which is considerable less then you think it is. Far less then owning it. If we dipolamtically controlled Europe we should also have unbeliable trade deals with them. Which we dont. We run a trade defict with them and have for a long time. How exactly can we be so damn powerful as you allege and be so completly incompentent.
Here we go with the military complex theory again. For one I have met many US generals as a military brat. In large part they are not that smart. You act like they are some master puppeters. The military is only 5% of the US ecomony. 5% of the economy is not the crazy gestalt you make it out to be. Yet again if it is how exactly did Obama or Clinton get elected. For that matter how did this crazy insane military complex let the Soviet Union collapse. You probably think that 911 was in inside job also. Also i am not going to argue with someone who thinks the CIA controls 2/3 of the herion production. That is outright conspiracy clap trap.
As for Europe -- I didn't say you control their economy, but US probably CAN ruin any european economy within days (this is already a form control). Then there's NATO. US dollar isn't worth a tenth of its current market value. Then, when US says that this country is bad and noone's to deal with it everyone else obeys even against their interests and sometimes -- against plain logic. Third world deals with dollars because if they don't there will be another 'peace keeping operation' in their region. And of course us dollar is the ONLY reserve world's currency and everyone's aware of that. Euro cannot compete with dollar, in fact Euro is probably even less stable to begin with. Federal Reserve prints green paper in trillions and exchanges them with something of real value (oil, gold, energy plants, real estate, etc). IN EXCHANGE OF GREEN PAPER!
Do you think the rest of the world is just so stupid that nobody sees that? Everybody knows, but who's going to argue with aircraft carriers and cruise missiles scattered all over the world?
About heroin - you can dig out the stats. During the period of American occupation the heroin production has QUADRUPLED there. Taliban used to burn the fields and was the only government there who managed to actually reduce it. (No, I'm not a Taliban sympathizer, but I don't flee from the facts). Americans have their faults but they were never known to give anything for free. It's against their nature. So when they say that the military's there to protect someone else's interests I laugh.
You say that the generals are not that smart, that's true for the most of them, but I doubt those who make real decisions are that stupid, and of course there're politicians around to order things around.
Interesting comment above. Yes, I think that the US could ruin any European country it choose to, pretty quickly if it wanted. And if financial sanctions and media propaganda didn't do the job, then they have more soldiers in Europe than any individual European country and plenty of weapons, including nukes.
But I didn't know any of those facts about the Afghan heroin! Go figure!
Nerms you are debating with people who are not American and don't see the world from an American perspective.
Why would we want America to dominate our countries, or anyone elses?
We are able to look at America objectively, while you have a biased view since it's your own nationality and since you watch news channels like Fox (propaganda news, according to everyone east of the atlantic).
I'd like it better if North America consisted of smaller countries, like Europe, instead of one giant country that can never seem to get enough control over the the world (financially, in terms of oil and politically)
I *hope* that the financial downturn will cause America to lose it's grip over the rest of the world and become a normal country that minds its own business instead of telling everybody else how to run their countries while cringing them junk culture/food and buying up their natural resources.
I lived in Europe for 5 years. I am well aware of European's opinion. Which was quite a shock when i lived there. What i learned then is what I am relearning now. Its pointless to argue. I do not concede the point. But i will concede its pointless to argue.
I can say one thing the economic downturn is kicking us hard. I know this because i can just look around at my work at stores. So i am sure you should be happy about that. But if everything you say is true....you should be more afraid of us now more then ever.
I will now go eat my wheaties with my apple pie while watching american football and fox new while polishing my .45 and singing God Bless America. Or whatever the current sterotype of an American is.
Personally I don't see a single reason why US need so many military bases scattered all over the world, but well, if you really need them badly -- it's up to you. I know you'll need them for defense against those who hate all Americans, but really, maybe it's time to think it over and ask yourself why half of the world hates USA? (I used to be one of them too, but reconsidered. It's your politicians that I don't disagree with, but many Americans I know personally and from this forum are quite nice, actually).
But as they say, being determines consciousness, so you'll never see the world from my perspective and I'll never see it from yours.
:lol: One thing I can agree with you -- the arguments ARE pointless. So, I'll just go put my fur hat on, drink some vodka and go scare a few bears from the streets singing the International.
Nope, she'll go to her Swedish family to have a Smörgåsbord with herring and eel listening ABBA and Ace of base.
Haha!!! After that I'll have sex under the midnight sun, ride a raindeer and brush my blonde hair... It's so great in Sweden!!!
(oops I am in exile in the UK and it's raining all the time.... and the whole country is falling to pieces with the new Tory governments "reforms".)
To save some of your time Eric. You are about to engage in arguing with a brick wall.
Ill try an explain where they are coming from. To allieviate your curiosity.
They think the people in North Korea probably dont live under that much hardship. Its probably just US propaganda so we can sell more McDonalds hamburgers or to sell more military aircraft etc. They will then say they probably have more rights then Americans, why dont you liberate yourselves first.
And even if they did live under great hardship( which remains to be seen) a war is far worse then the cure. Its better that the situation be left alone and let it sort itself out naturally. Military presense itself is what causes Kim to act the way he does. If we left, things would be much better for them anyhow. Kim would likely be nicer to them feed them more in there cages. And even if we ejected Kim its likely the ensuing chaos some new dictator would emerge. This is there great wisdom. They feel the US is a loose cannon who cant see farther then the barrel of there gun. That the US is far more of a dictator then Kim has or ever will be. This belief system in large part comes from a strong pacifist tendency that has developed for many reasons. That concludes my explaination, I hope i saved some time of your life.
Nerms, you're laying a bit thick. We're not that unreasonable.
They would. You wouldn't probably believe it, but they ADORE their government (most of them). There is some dissent, of course, but they're told that their lives are miserable because of the South and the Americans and they believe it. It's hard to believe for you, maybe, because you don't know howpropagandabrainwashing can affect human minds, but those like me who was born in the USSR times will understand and believe this. In order for N. Korean government to fall you'd need several years of heavy couter-propaganda campaign first. Military assault on North Korea will only strengthen their resolve - they will defend not only their home, but the very core of their ideas about what's right and what's wrong.
Asians do not think individually, but consider themselves as a part of whole, a nation. They have collectivist minds and individual values do not loom very large in their views.
I have actually been in North Korea. It was in the late 1980s or maybe 1990, and I was in my teens. It's very poor country! Everything new looked like it was modelled on the USSR although the quality seemed worse. However, they had really nice public facilities like a swimming pool complex, amusement park, adventure playgrounds and some good museums, both in the capital and in another city that my brother and I went to. There were colourful murals and mosaics on the walls and traditional costumes were common.
All the people we spoke to seemed really sweet, honest and friendly. We spent a great day on the beach there - that was just like in any other country. However we were with a guide all the time. There were almost no shops, anywhere. We were taller than absolutely everyone in the whole country!
I didn't know anything about the country before arriving, other than my that my father warned my brother and I not to say anything negative about Kim-Il-Sen (president) because it would be offensive to the North Koreans and might cause trouble for him. Kim Il Sen was like a god there, but my brother and I had never even heard of him. It seemed silly to us and we joked about it quite a lot.
But the adoration of the people for Kim Il Sen felt very genuine. He is a liberation hero to them. It seemed like the whole country had a one united purpose; restoring national pride after Japanese occupation for decades, and rebuilding the country which was flattened by the USA in the Korean war. It felt a bit like the whole country was in a big project together.
There was so much pride in their country - despite it being poor - which they knew. The thing they were proud about was how fast they rebuild the country from total destruction. Japan as a colonial power treated Korea terribly... and just when they were beginning to recover from that; the whole country is bombed to pieces by the USA. Who can blame them for being a bit paranoid?
I came away thinking the country was poor, a bit strange but that the people were very proud, but nice. I don't think the average person there felt very oppressed - at least not when I was there. But of course, I didn't ask.. and there might be plenty of people who felt that way, that i never saw.
But from media reports its clear that they have quite gruesome prisons; a bit like "gulags". Probably the state meddles far too much in peoples life, but that's true for lots of countries.
The biggest problem they have now must surely be that they have food shortages and no medicines or oil/electicity. Anyone who really cared about North Koreans should try to help with that.
The Koreans should be left to sort out their differences without any meddling by any other country. I neither support North Korea, nor would I wish it to be overthrown. How the Koreans live in their own country is not my problem.
On the flight back to Japan my dad said that North Korea owed his company millions; it just took delivery of some goods a few years earlier, and never paid a penny. The trip had been about trying to secure payment in return for spare parts that they needed.
Plus, I agree with Ramil: Asians LIKE to be in a collective and follow a leader who they worship. It's part of their culture...Happens in Japan too, in businesses and with the emperor before that. And in China etc.
I've been in North Cuba and I know it doesn't work.
Turn in your Che Guevara shirt and be done with the classless society garbage.You would be better off drinking heavily with me and Ramil looking for UFOs. (Yes, I'm still looking forward to that) http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-alien011.gif
I can't agree more.
USA interference only fuels the conflict between two Koreas, and the image of N. Korea as evil country is blown out of proportion. I also don't particularly like that USA keeps ruining other states by breaking them into pieces in the process of "peacemaking."
I disagree with everything you say but the UFO smiley is very funny.
Aren't you breaking American law by going there? Or did you go to some US controlled island nearby, rather than Cuba itself?
So you "know" it doesn't work? On what basis? On the grounds that there aren't enough McDonald's and big gas-guzzling cars? Not enough commercials on TV and super-obese people walking the streets? No American airbase just outside the capital?
People are NOT starving in Cuba, they have no drug wars like in Mexico, better organized than Haiti or Jamaica ever were, no beggars like elsewhere in South America, low crime, free decent education and free health care. No sweat-shops like elsewhere in Latin America. They even dropped the death penalty.
Some say a society should be judged on how it treats its poor and needy: In Cuba, anyone is guaranteed a job, a roof over his head, free medical care and free good education, suited to his abilities.
One of the main reasons that it still a poor country is that the worlds largest economy, and their neighbour, has done its' best to strangle their economy, for what, 50 years? Economic blockade etc. And even tried to invade their country! Maybe you should look closer to home before you criticize Cuba!
The people there overthrew one corrupt government before, and no doubt they will do it again if they get sufficiently unhappy! Personally I would guess that perhaps they are comparing their situation with the rest of Latin America, and with the experience of Eastern Europe in the 1990s. And based on that they prefer to keep the status quo for the time being despite the problems.
They still have their dignity as an independent country and there is good hope that things may improve in the future. I understand people are really well educated there and that can only be good for the country. Apparently they also started co-operating with Venezuela which has plenty of oil.
WTF? Was it US who cut the peninsula into two pieces? The US was the one who tried to keep the commie cancer off the other part of the country after it had been cut. The whole nation of South Korea should say thanks to the US for not being rabbits looking for grass for their dinner.
Hanna,
If the purpose of you writing these posts is to vent, then vent away. If the purpose is to get your comrades up in arms then continue to do so. "IF" the purpose of your posts is to change American minds you have now gone down a road that will do the opposite. Before this post even started i was willing to concede we (the US) needed to close most our bases around the world. You can check under a different view of the US...or something like that....one of my post was near the end. You are now changing my mind in the opposite direction. I am beginning to think we need those bases to protect ourselves from people like you. And i suspect if someone was on the fence you have shoved them to the side you dont want them on.
Its your call thou. I believe in free speech, and dont want you to feel silenced.
No from people all over the world who have her exact mind set.
Her and people with her views of vitrole and hate towards the US can quickly leap to a gun or a nuke. Her and people like her's support of dictators around the world leaves me with little room to move. Our views on good or bad are so alien, i am beginning to think its safer to keep those bases. Why take a chance?
after all what do you have to worry about. apparently we are to stupid and fat to make it to the battlefield. will have a heart attack before we get there and the worlds problems will be over right.
she and people like her would say $15 a month is not what gives people there human diginity. That would be her counter argument. which i would agree with. But if you cant practice your religion or speak against castro and in general if your not free to just be yourself then you really dont have much human diginity. Of course then the argument they will make is that is a complete fabrication. And then here we are deadlocked. And of course the US caused it all. And your wrong about some sort of blockage. I can goto cuba if i wanted. I would need premission. The thing as an American that cant do is sell or buy from them without premission. Also Hanna if you wanted or anyone else in the world wanted to goto Cuba they are free to. Tourist from around the world go there all the time.
How does it make her wrong? Economical blockage is exactly what she was talking about.
United States embargo against Cuba - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
PS. Do you mean that you need a permission to go to Cuba from your government? Or did you mean Cuban visa?
On the propaganda box the state issues us in the US. They had 1 Cuban exiled doctor (now a US citizen) who goes there (Cuba) to render medical assistance performing cataract surgery and mostly eye related issues. He knows there is a risk that who could get put in jail. But they leave him alone because he promises to not say anything against the regieme. But again this is probably just US propaganda.
It does not guarantee the result. While she exists you can not feel safe. You have to kill all those people like her until they did not kill you. Then you should settle a control over all who remained and check each month with lie detector, and if they suddenly start to support dictators or hate US, kill immediately. This is the only way to save democracy.
There were some financial problems in USA recently. Also the system of medical care is a bit... insane. Maybe small bombing would help?
Eric C.
Maybe you should do it again (reread)? How can they earn more if there is "Economic blockade"? I'm against communism but your point isn't fair in that conditions.Quote:
I reread your post, Hanna, having come up with a single argument: they get paid $15 a month.
if she was referring to an ecomonic blockade (US Cuban goods in out) then yes we have that. If you are referring to a "blockade" where no one is allowed in or out then that would be incorrect.
I could charter a boat to Cuba and do what i wanted etc. nobody would stop me except maybe the cubans. But I am supposed to inform the US goverment of my intention to goto Cuba. When, where, and for how long. The VISA would be another matter. The reprecussions of going without informing them are unknown to me. The could of course deny me the request if the felt inclined to. But yet again I am an American this could all be propaganda.
The US economy does work. Also, the health care system is excellent, in my opinion (and those who happened to need to be put in a hospital with a non-lethal disease and were smart enough to be carrying insurance would agree with me, unlike those in the third world who are dying because of lack of proper medical equipment and medical staff doing nothing to help them). Also, I didn't say anything about bombing.