Thread: Members of Ukrainian parliament fight over Russian language

Originally Posted by LXNDR

yes it is, for the sake of cultural diversity

but what kind of convenience you mean i don't understand

there's large Ukrainian diaspora in Canada and Chinese as well, do you think their languages should receive the same status as English and French?

Well, I know that certain areas in Canada maintain their Ukrainian identity and hold on their language. For more than 100 years. That being said, the Ukrainian Canadians are only making the 10th or so in overall population so making Ukrainian official language is more of an inconvenience than there would be a convenience.

But, it's good that you mentioned French as a second official language in Canada. So, the francophones are a minority, but since it's very widely spoken language in Canada, it is official. That is a convenience as well as the political unity. The descendants of French settlers had a concern that English as a more dominant culture in the region would obsolete French. Making French an official language solved the issue. Nowdays, both English and French are mandatory languages in all schools in Canada. And even though Canadian French is still under strong influence of English, nobody I think is afraid French would be obsolete. What's wrong with that solution and why couldn't that be implemented in Ukraine?

That being said, there are a number of organizations which would employ the Ukrainian origin. For example, https://www.ukrainiancu.com/UCU/ which offices are all over Canada would only accept members of the Ukrainian origin. E.g. I cannot become a member and get a credit from that union. Ukrainians are very proud of their origin I guess..

Originally Posted by Crocodile

That being said, there are a number of organizations which would employ the Ukrainian origin. For example, https://www.ukrainiancu.com/UCU/ which offices are all over Canada would only accept members of the Ukrainian origin. E.g. I cannot become a member and get a credit from that union. Ukrainians are very proud of their origin I guess..

Any diaspora in any country is usually very serious about their traditions and their origin, sometimes more that those who were left behind in their native country. It's a natural desire to preserve what's left in a new and unfamiliar world. Ukrainian diaspora is well known for cherishing Ukrainian traditions and being as "Ukrainian" as possible (as well as Jews, for example).

Sometimes they try too hard, though. There was an incident last year or so. Some Canadian organization invited sick and orphaned children from Carpathian region of Ukraine for medical treatment and/or recreation, which was great and very generous of them. Except that there was one condition - no Russian speaking children. I guess they were in their right, but this kind of segregation still looked kind of bad.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Any diaspora in any country is usually very serious about their traditions and their origin, sometimes more that those who were left behind in their native country. It's a natural desire to preserve what's left in a new and unfamiliar world. Ukrainian diaspora is well known for cherishing Ukrainian traditions and being as "Ukrainian" as possible (as well as Jews, for example).

Sometimes they try too hard, though. There was an incident last year or so. Some Canadian organization invited sick and orphaned children from Carpathian region of Ukraine for medical treatment and/or recreation, which was great and very generous of them. Except that there was one condition - no Russian speaking children. I guess they were in their right, but this kind of segregation still looked kind of bad.

Exactly, that's what I was talking about. Based on my experience of communicating with the second and third generations of Ukrainian origin, they have nothing against Russians and Russian culture, but they know nothing of it and they obviously can't speak or understand Russian (as much as I can't speak and understand Ukrainian). The Ukrainian organizations seem pretty tough on that matter though..

Originally Posted by Hanna

I was recently in the Baltics and noticed no such mentality among the Russian speakers. In most cases (except the market in Riga) it was very hard to tell who was ethnically Russian vs Latvian. They are not very warm people, like Ukrainians for example - but both groups were about equally well or poorly behaved. There were crooks and rude people from either nationality, nice and friendly people from either. The Russians are somewhat the underdog though, the native Latvians are a little bit better off economically I think.

i'm not so much talking from human relations standpoint as from the standpoint of values, and it's the prevailing values which determine the orientation of the entire nation and national consciousness

Originally Posted by Hanna

But the Balts are practically being fascist about it - that is what I oppose.

they restore historical justice, they have every right to since they have been violated

Originally Posted by Hanna

The Baltic states are essentially culturally and ethnically homogenous from an outside perspective, which is more than what can be said for any country in Northern Europe for example. In Belarus were only Belarussians and Russians, in the Ukraine I was not able to determine, but there certainly were no Africans or Arabs there at any rate. In Latvia too, were only white people, Europeans.

that is why it's only logical that there should be only one official language

I just watched on Эхо Москвы a talk with Riga's mayor Нил Ушаков, as you can tell by his surname he's Russian, by his personal name one can tell how much Russian he is, because Нил is an ancient forgotten Russian name
so maybe the rumors about discrimination are a bit exaggerated, or maybe only a certain stratum of Russian speaking population is discriminated against on whatever grounds

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Well, I know that certain areas in Canada maintain their Ukrainian identity and hold on their language. For more than 100 years. That being said, the Ukrainian Canadians are only making the 10th or so in overall population so making Ukrainian official language is more of an inconvenience than there would be a convenience.

with such percentage, this Ukrainian law the MPs scrap over, would grant these Ukrainians the right to demand declaring Ukrainian a provincial language alongside English and French, don't you think it's ridiculous?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

The descendants of French settlers had a concern that English as a more dominant culture in the region would obsolete French. Making French an official language solved the issue. Nowdays, both English and French are mandatory languages in all schools in Canada. And even though Canadian French is still under strong influence of English, nobody I think is afraid French would be obsolete. What's wrong with that solution and why couldn't that be implemented in Ukraine?

that's the exact reason why Ukrainian has to remain the sole official language, i mentioned this reason earlier in this thread

Originally Posted by LXNDR

with such percentage, this Ukrainian law the MPs scrap over, would grant these Ukrainians the right to demand declaring Ukrainian a provincial language alongside English and French, don't you think it's ridiculous?

You see, I'm in no position to say that would be ridiculous or not. That's why there are provincial legislatures. A province is typically entitled to make a choice like that. I observed that if a movement like that is very strong and speaks to many citizens, the stakes in the provincial legislature would be pretty high and they would try to perhaps look for a compromise. The reason being is that the politicians are typically riding the waves to gain the votes. The present MP in that area would either vote for Ukrainian language and blame the failure on the other MPs, or face replacement in the other term. Those 'turnaround' forces are pretty strong and MPs would typically prefer to comply. There might be political tricks like following: "Oh, you want Ukrainian become another provincial language? Sure, why not! But, that would cost another $2,000,000 a year for the province and should have subsidized by the higher taxes. Are you ready for that?!!" And then there's going to be the whole fuss about that which would either settle down to the higher provincial taxes or to the majority rejecting that on that ground. But, not because: "Ahh!! Those Ukrainians came to our country and now want to be a dominant force and discriminate against Metis who are 7th number in the population and not the 10th!!" And so on. Do you see the difference?

So, honestly, I'm not really familiar with Ukrainian economy that well, but deep down I sense making Russian another official language would bring more money to the state than actually would be spent by the state to maintain the extra resources. Does it make sense?

Originally Posted by LXNDR

that's the exact reason why Ukrainian has to remain the sole official language, i mentioned this reason earlier in this thread

You mentioned that, and I mentioned a peaceful solution that worked. Would you be able to elaborate why that solution would not work in Ukraine if implemented? An official language means that the citizen has a right to request a service from the state in either of the official language and the state is required by law to provide the service in that language.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

You see, I'm in no position to say that would be ridiculous or not. That's why there are provincial legislatures. A province is typically entitled to make a choice like that. I observed that if a movement like that is very strong and speaks to many citizens, the stakes in the provincial legislature would be pretty high and they would try to perhaps look for a compromise. The reason being is that the politicians are typically riding the waves to gain the votes. The present MP in that area would either vote for Ukrainian language and blame the failure on the other MPs, or face replacement in the other term. Those 'turnaround' forces are pretty strong and MPs would typically prefer to comply. There might be political tricks like following: "Oh, you want Ukrainian become another provincial language? Sure, why not! But, that would cost another $2,000,000 a year for the province and should have subsidized by the higher taxes. Are you ready for that?!!" And then there's going to be the whole fuss about that which would either settle down to the higher provincial taxes or to the majority rejecting that on that ground. But, not because: "Ahh!! Those Ukrainians came to our country and now want to be a dominant force and discriminate against Metis who are 7th number in the population and not the 10th!!" And so on. Do you see the difference?

in the former Soviet republics historical reasoning cannot be discounted, these are young states

Originally Posted by Crocodile

You mentioned that, and I mentioned a peaceful solution that worked. Would you be able to elaborate why that solution would not work in Ukraine if implemented? An official language means that the citizen has a right to request a service from the state in either of the official language and the state is required by law to provide the service in that language.

there's no need in peaceful solution because it's peaceful now, you don't fix what's not broken

sorry the reasons against the law which is being proposed are too many to mention

Originally Posted by Crocodile

So, honestly, I'm not really familiar with Ukrainian economy that well, but deep down I sense making Russian another official language would bring more money to the state than actually would be spent by the state to maintain the extra resources. Does it make sense?

what extra resources do you mean?

Originally Posted by LXNDR

in the former Soviet republics historical reasoning cannot be discounted, these are young states

Unfortunately, I didn't get that. Would you be able to spell it out for a simple-minded crocodile?

Originally Posted by LXNDR

there's no need in peaceful solution because it's peaceful now, you don't fix what's not broken

Well, I'm not so sure about that. I happen to spend some time in Ukraine once in a while and I noticed a growing concern that some of the people have trouble with that sole-Ukrainian thing. My impression (I might be wrong though) was that the assertion of all-Ukrainian was based on the promises of some of the former government officials for the tighter integration with the European Union and the subsequent inevitable economic prosperity and political freedoms. So, to make something of a slogan, that was: "Let's break free from Russian dominance and integrate with Europe on the equal terms!" More recently I observed a growing disillusionment in that idea. Rather, that seemed like a playing card in the East vs the West parts' of the country power games. (I'm probably oversimplifying that, but I trust you forgive me.) The economic and political tension between the two parts of Ukraine have seem to be growing with every year. And whilst one of the sides is looking for the support from Russia, the other side is looking for the support from the West (let's call it that way). Traditionally, those kind of tensions find their implementations in the separatist sentiments and, subsequently, movements. In light of all that, I think, recognizing Russian as a second official language would rather unite the nation and qualify for a peaceful solution. Does it make sense?

Originally Posted by LXNDR

sorry the reasons against the law which is being proposed are too many to mention

The law is not the Ten Commandments. The law is for the people and not the people are for the law.

Originally Posted by LXNDR

what extra resources do you mean?

Money.