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I hear ya!
:( & :evil: too
I wonder if we are going to hear "Oh the Spanish government did it because they want a free hand against the brave Basque separatists"... you know the kind of stories we always end up hearing when something of the kind happens in Russia.
Well, there are points of comparison: both nations are 'new' democracies; both have dealt very badly with a long-standing problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by bad manners
The Spanish government ain't sanctioning kidnap on the streets of Vitoria though.
not like that wasnt posed against the us government after 9=11. Some french author even had a best seller talking about the conspiracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by bad manners
Man, am I feeling a dickhead... I meant 'I hear ya' as a sarcastic comment (seeing how it apparently had nothing whatsoever to do with anything), but I hadn't heard about the tragedy yet. Sarcasm not meant.
Read it a few times I have but see a connection with my question I cannot.Quote:
Originally Posted by joysof
Russian conduct in Chechnya vs. Spanish conduct in Basque territory.
Because the Russians act so brutally in Chechnya, people will be more likely to think "bad" things about them. I guess that's what he meant. Or something...
I'll wait for a reply from joysof anyway. I still do not see a connection with kidnapping – the Chechens used to kidnap the Russians, but I do not think it was ever sanctioned by the Russian government.
Your explanation (not to say I agree) seems to imply that the Chechens are a lot more likely to "strike back" than the Basque, yet we constantly hear "it was the government, it was the FSB, etc". In the case of Spain, as you again seem to imply, the Basque are treated so much more humanly by the Spanish (I would like to hear exactly how much more humanly, just out of my everlasting curiosity), and so should not even think about doing all those horrid things. Thus it is a lot more natural to suspect the government than in the case of Russia, yet it is quite strangely the other way around. A paradox:
1. The Russians treat the Chechens very brutally, yet the latter never do bad things toward the former; those bad things are always done by the government.
2. The Spanish treat the Basque very mildly, yet the latter always do bad things toward the former; those bad things are never done by the government.
I'm not talking about kidnappings. I'm talking about people being brought in by Russian troops and "disappearing".Quote:
Originally Posted by bad manners
I figured as much... :lol:Quote:
Your explanation (not to say I agree)
No, I was saying that the Russian reputation is such a bad one, you could expect anything from them. Putin = Stalin and that kind of BS.Quote:
seems to imply that the Chechens are a lot more likely to "strike back" than the Basque, yet we constantly hear "it was the government, it was the FSB, etc".
No razzias? Might that have anything to do with it? If you are trying to equate Russian actions in Chechnya with Spanish actions in the Basque territories, I'd suggest you read a bit more on the subjectQuote:
(I would like to hear exactly how much more humanly, just out of my everlasting curiosity)
I explained the reasoning behind this.Quote:
1. The Russians treat the Chechens very brutally, yet the latter never do bad things toward the former; those bad things are always done by the government.
2. The Spanish treat the Basque very mildly, yet the latter always do bad things toward the former; those bad things are never done by the government.
Quite right. So to sum it up, no matter what the Russians really do, as soon as a biased reporter says "the Russians do these horrible things AGAIN", everybody buys that, no questions asked. We're in agreement here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gollandski Yozh
[quote=bad manners]Quite right. So to sum it up, no matter what the Russians really do, as soon as a biased reporter says "the Russians do these horrible things AGAIN", everybody buys that, no questions asked. We're in agreement here.[/quote:48784298]Quote:
Originally Posted by "Gollandski Yozh":48784298
If I would have had a diary, I'm sure I would have noted: "Bad manners and me have been in agreement today on the forum. Is this a sign that everything will work out fine in the end?" :lol: :lol: :wink:
Explain I shall.Quote:
Originally Posted by bad manners
Quite simple really: if we're making a comparison between Spain and the Basques and Russia and the Chechens (which, I think, is what you were aiming for), we need to get a few things straight.
Similarities:
- the majority of Basques do not want total self-determination; ditto Chechens.
- the problems exist not just on a territorial/political level, but are entwined with of all notions of both Russian and Spanish nationhood; it’s part of what you get when you don't emerge as a sovereign state until the Middle Ages have come and gone and then spend hundreds of years bathing in glorious blood instead of inching towards representative government and a sensible imperial policy.
Differences:
- Spain has finally learnt its lesson in recent years (see below for more). What happened on Thursday was not the work of Eta in any recognisable manifestation: due to a combination of sensible opposition and internal atrophy, they're a spent force. Conversely, Putin's administration, like Yeltsin's (and Stalin's and Nicholas I's and Ivan the Terrible's and...) before it, seems intent on insanely hard-line responses. This is not, as the British at long last have seen in Northern Ireland, the way to deal with bolshy ethnic minorities.
Since you asked so nicely (and since your thirst for knowledge is just so darned charming): since 1975, the Basques - through a combination of popular pressure, Batasuna feist and Eta 'encouragement’ - have achieved an unprecedented degree of autonomy: tax-raising powers, education, health and policing are all now concentrated in the hands of the regional government; Chechnya, meanwhile, has Kadyrov and his cronies/relatives - a puppet regime, in effect.Quote:
In the case of Spain, as you again seem to imply, the Basque are treated so much more humanly by the Spanish (I would like to hear exactly how much more humanly, just out of my everlasting curiosity), and so should not even think about doing all those horrid things.
I was in a crowded metro train the last time Chechens decided to make kasha of the folks of Moscow. From a purely personal point of view, I'd rather have Eta. However much I hate this Russian government, it goes without saying that I hate the suicide-bombers more.Quote:
A paradox:
1. The Russians treat the Chechens very brutally, yet the latter never do bad things toward the former; those bad things are always done by the government.
2. The Spanish treat the Basque very mildly, yet the latter always do bad things toward the former; those bad things are never done by the government.
Think that covers it.
Oh, the kidnap thing:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/art...167584,00.html
http://english.pravda.ru/accidents/2.../03/43915.html
http://www.msf.org/countries/page.cf...B6EC2359B0FD2A
Is that so? I thought the Chechens taken 'en masse' were quite keen on it. But really I don't know. I am, after all, a bear of very little brain.Quote:
Originally Posted by joysof
Another difference: the Chechen state, when it was granted pretty much sovereignty, ended up attacking Russia. Would you remind that phrase in your second mother tongue that mentions "la guerre" two times?Quote:
Originally Posted by joysof
See above. The Chechens had a lot more than that. It is only fair that they have a lot less now.Quote:
Since you asked so nicely (and since your thirst for knowledge is just so darned charming): since 1975, the Basques - through a combination of popular pressure, Batasuna feist and Eta 'encouragement’ - have achieved an unprecedented degree of autonomy: tax-raising powers, education, health and policing are all now concentrated in the hands of the regional government; Chechnya, meanwhile, has Kadyrov and his cronies/relatives - a puppet regime, in effect.
But why do we always hear "the Russians did that themselves"? Why do we not hear it now that everybody knows that ETA is pretty much passQuote:
I was in a crowded metro train the last time Chechens decided to make kasha of the folks of Moscow. From a purely personal point of view, I'd rather have Eta. However much I hate this Russian government, it goes without saying that I hate the suicide-bombers more.
Validata is an independent polling organisation:Quote:
Originally Posted by waxwing
http://www.validata.ru/e_e/chechnya/
The last thing I'm doing is defending Maskhadov and Basayev.Quote:
Originally Posted by bad manners
They 'deserve' an undeclared, unmonitored dirty war, do they? All of them?Quote:
See above. The Chechens had a lot more than that. It is only fair that they have a lot less now.
There are a lot of irrational people around, it seems:Quote:
That's not even funny. Somebody is kidnapped by the Chechen bandits who’ve been living off this business for over a decade now, yet the Russian government is blamed. Can it be more irrational than that?
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/chec...htm#P171_30706
I have only ever heard that after the 1999 apartment bombings in Moscow and, loath though I am to give credence to anything originating from that crook Berezovsky, there was a sufficient circumstantial evidence at the time to raise international eyebrows.Quote:
But why do we always hear "the Russians did that themselves"?
At the risk of becoming one of those internet saddos who can't admit it when he's wrong, I wonder about the ethnic split? The figures in that poll are for a sample of the population of Chechnya. What proportion of the population are ethnic Chechens, and what proportion are Russians? I don't make any moral implication from it, just want to know.Quote:
Originally Posted by joysof
By the way, a couple of days ago 4 militia men were shot about 100km outside of Stavropol by some guys in a car. Chechens I think. Something like that, haven't read the details.
Yours twitchingly,
Waxwing
Good stuff, joysof. Stop putting words in my mouth. We're were comparing them with that thing in Spain, remember? One of the "more humanly" things in Spain was a higher level of independence, according to you. I said that the Chechens had that and far more than that, but they used their sovereignty in ways very dangerous to Russia. So that sovereignty was revoked and now they have to play the same ball as anyone else in Russia.Quote:
Originally Posted by joysof
Oh, and the war is over. What we're seeing now is mopping up of the bandits. Or do you believe that the Chechens would be a lot happier if left alone with those bandits?
There are a lot of irrational people around, it seems:Quote:
[quote:shnslxe6]That's not even funny. Somebody is kidnapped by the Chechen bandits who’ve been living off this business for over a decade now, yet the Russian government is blamed. Can it be more irrational than that?
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/chec...htm#P171_30706[/quote:shnslxe6]
Compare that with
http://hrw.org/reports/2004/afghanistan ... oc64778169
And how is that different?
I hope you do see now, with the recent bombings et al, that even in 1999 the Chechens were a lot more likely to do that rather than anybody else.Quote:
I have only ever heard that after the 1999 apartment bombings in Moscow and, loath though I am to give credence to anything originating from that crook Berezovsky, there was a sufficient circumstantial evidence at the time to raise international eyebrows.
:lol: :lol: :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by bad manners
I don't even know how to react to such naivity. Sounds like a US general in the late 60s about Vietnam... How many years can one "just mop up bandits"?
[quote=Gollandski Yozh]:lol: :lol: :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by "bad manners":l7deezf9
I don't even know how to react to such naivity. Sounds like a US general in the late 60s about Vietnam...[/quote:l7deezf9]
Could be. But the Russians have a well established record of dealing with nationalists and bandits resolutely and successfully. The Americans, almighty though they might be, have no such accomplishments to date -- and the way it looks in A and I (as well as V and almost any letter of the Latin alphabet) they are not going to.
If this historic reasoning means nothing for you, let's consider the facts of the present day. Gelayev, for one. He did not die exactly as a commander engaged in a large scale war. He died as a bandit who could run but could not hide. That does look like mopping up.
It's not mopping up or a "large scale war", it's a guerilla war.
If you don't like the US example, what about Afghanistan? Also, a war that was supposedly over after the Afghan cities were captured. Then you had Kabul, now Grozny. The Chechens, like the Afghan resistance, rule in the mountains and at night. Guess who lost in Afghanistan...
Who cares about Afghanistan? It was foreign ground. The Afghani never attacked Russia. The Caucasus is not foreign, and the Chechens did attack Russia. They also did a lot of bad things to the Russians. It is a very different story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gollandski Yozh
In the case of Afghanistan, what ruled was the huge help by the USA and the other Western countries. Where do you think they bought millions of Italian land mines? Or where did they get the money? Or thousands of SAMs? Or who sponsored the training camps in Pakistan? What happened to those same Afghani who must be ruling like hell in the mountains against the Americans right now? I have not heard much of their exploits lately.Quote:
The Chechens, like the Afghan resistance, rule in the mountains and at night. Guess who lost in Afghanistan...
If the recent information correct, this terrorist acts weren't work of ETA.
So, exact comparison with Chechen situation looks inappropriate.
However, the if the Spanish involvement in war in Iraq was reason for the attacks, it does not improve the situation. Maybe, even worsen it.
If all "wars with terrorism" results in new terrorist attacks, there's something deeply wrong about them.
It isn't, at least not vastly. Whence came this idea that I am making the case for the Americans and their footling coalition? Job lot of bad 'uns as far as I can see. If one good thing has come out of the Madrid carnage, it's that the Spanish have gone and got themselves a real left-of-centre government disinclined to involve itself in disastrous wars/border disputes. Would that the Russians and Americans could do the same.Quote:
Can't find any recent figures (any help here?). Shouldn't matter though, should it? Ethnic Chechen or not, they all have to live there: no minority has the right to impose itself simply by virtue of being noisier than the rest put together.Quote:
Originally Posted by waxwing
Agreed joysof, that's why I put the caveat about morality. Interested if anyone knows the figures though.
Well, did you not say that the Russian government was sanctioning this and that in Chechnya? My curiosity now urges me to find out whether you think that the American government sanctions those not vastly different things in Afghanistan. If you say "no", then I shall like to know why it is not the case. If you say "yes", then I shall lean back and remark that "the government-sanctioned war crimes are the de facto world standard in the 'war against terror'".Quote:
Originally Posted by joysof
Actually, it is quite simple. Most ethnic non-Chechens had left Chechnya before the first Chechen war, because their lives were very much at stake there. So you can very safely assume that whatever population is left in Chechnya is very homogenous ethnically.Quote:
Originally Posted by joysof
An interesting twist is that the Chechen modus vivendi is highly clan-oriented. That is, there is a number of powerful clans in Chechnya, and they often have conflicting views and goals.
Yes and yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by bad manners
De facto is it; certainly ain't de jure. It's a crying shame that the United Nations is too toothless to deal with the larger 'rogue states'.
Not a 'world standard': you don't get the Swedes and the Dutch doing this sort of thing, or even the Japeanese for that matter. Sadly, though, it seems to be the modus operandi (Latin is fun, eh?) as far as the most powerful - the overmighty, over-rich and over-moralistic - are concerned.
Western European social democracy is the way forward. Give me the rank corruption of Chirac and Mitterand over the odious foreign policy of Bush and Putin and I'll be a happy little liberal.
Beside the point. It means nothing for the question "Is this a mere mopping up operation or a war?" we were addressing.Quote:
Originally Posted by bad manners
Chechens can safely retreat into the mountains and Georgia. They get their money from the Saudis, for example, as well as weapons. Also, they can buy weapons from every poor Russian soldier who needs a few extra rubles to supplement the pathetic pay he receives from the government.Quote:
In the case of Afghanistan, what ruled was the huge help by the USA and the other Western countries. Where do you think they bought millions of Italian land mines? Or where did they get the money? Or thousands of SAMs? Or who sponsored the training camps in Pakistan?
Western forces control only Kabul, nothing more. Rural Afghanistan is controlled by warlords. You hear little of them, because the US doesn't give a sh*t. They just land their helicopters where they think Al-Qaeda can be found and leave again. So, if you don't fight them, they don't have to fight back.Quote:
What happened to those same Afghani who must be ruling like hell in the mountains against the Americans right now? I have not heard much of their exploits lately.
I can tell you from first hand experience that this is not the case. The US military has numerous staging areas throughout Afghanistan from which offensives and patrols are continuously dispatched. Needless to say, the US military is not going to tell you where they have deployed troops. The only areas not under US control are in terrain that is not conducive to static occupation. Even these areas, however, are open to US ground attack in five minutes or less and are usually patrolled by unmanned CIA probes.Quote:
Western forces control only Kabul, nothing more. Rural Afghanistan is controlled by warlords
A country as large as Afghanistan with a fairly small US presence is controlled by the US army? I very, very much doubt that. I've read reports (from the Dutch and German soldiers in Kabul) that paint a completely different picture...
The first question here is "where would they do that". If you have a non-empty set of answers, then there is indeed something to be said about the morality of the filthy war mongers such as the Russian and American governments.Quote:
Originally Posted by joysof
The fact remains that these nations don't involve themselves in the international brawlers' club which convenes every time a pointless Third World theocracy steps out of line. The Japanese, of course, used to invade their neighbours in a whimsical and haphazard fashion, but seem to have grown out of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by bad manners
What, pray, is a 'non-empty set of answers'?
[quote=Gollandski Yozh]Beside the point. It means nothing for the question "Is this a mere mopping up operation or a war?" we were addressing.[/quote:2tzwkkhe]Quote:
Originally Posted by "bad manners":2tzwkkhe
Oh really? What was your .sig saying just a week ago? That does not mean anything to you, does it?
What fucking Chechens? Wake up and realize that there may be a few dozens of bandits running about the mountains. Retreat, my ass. Need I remind you again of that Gelayev guy who died while he was trying to "retreat"?Quote:
Chechens can safely retreat into the mountains and Georgia.
Not nearly the same scale. Ask you girlfriend about неуловимый Джо.Quote:
They get their money from the Saudis, for example, as well as weapons. Also, they can buy weapons from every poor Russian soldier who needs a few extra rubles to supplement the pathetic pay he receives from the government.
BS. Stop taking anti-American propaganda for granted.Quote:
Western forces control only Kabul, nothing more.
Funny, it looks like it is empty actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by joysof
[quote=bad manners][quote="Gollandski Yozh":o2rpf7hs]Beside the point. It means nothing for the question "Is this a mere mopping up operation or a war?" we were addressing.[/quote:o2rpf7hs]Quote:
Originally Posted by "bad manners":o2rpf7hs
Oh really? What was your .sig saying just a week ago? That does not mean anything to you, does it?[/quote:o2rpf7hs]
Soviet propaganda. Sounded cool. That's it.
What @@@@ Chechens? Wake up and realize that there may be a few dozens of bandits running about the mountains. Retreat, my ass. Need I remind you again of that Gelayev guy who died while he was trying to "retreat"?[/quote:o2rpf7hs]Quote:
[quote:o2rpf7hs]Chechens can safely retreat into the mountains and Georgia.
A few dozen? And still they hold out. My, the Russian army is in an even more pathetic state than I thought... A few dozen. That's a joke. Than why is the "mopping up" been going on for years now?
Not nearly the same scale. Ask you girlfriend about неуловимый Джо.[/quote:o2rpf7hs]Quote:
[quote:o2rpf7hs]They get their money from the Saudis, for example, as well as weapons. Also, they can buy weapons from every poor Russian soldier who needs a few extra rubles to supplement the pathetic pay he receives from the government.
Hеуловимый Джо? All I know is that I told my gf about a documentary I saw on Dutch TV on Russian soldiers being poorly paid, housed and supplied. And their commander stealing part of their wages. She said: "Yes, that sounds all too familiar."
BS. Stop taking anti-American propaganda for granted.[/quote:o2rpf7hs]Quote:
[quote:o2rpf7hs]Western forces control only Kabul, nothing more.
I'm not basing myself on anti-American propaganda, but on the reports of the Dutch soldiers who have been serving in Kabul until recently. I'd say they have been in a better position to judge the situation than you. No offense.
Who exactly are holding out there? Would you care to name a couple of great accomplishments they had within the last couple of weeks?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gollandski Yozh
How many criminals do you have in Holland? I bet a lot more than a few dozens. And lemme count, wow, the Dutch police have been unable to mop them up for centuries. You do have a pathetic police there in Holland. And an army as well I would say.Quote:
Than why is the "mopping up" been going on for years now?
So? It was the same during WWII.Quote:
Hеуловимый Джо? All I know is that I told my gf about a documentary I saw on Dutch TV on Russian soldiers being poorly paid, housed and supplied. And their commander stealing part of their wages. She said: "Yes, that sounds all too familiar."
The soldiers of the fifth most pathetic army in the old NATO (that is, marginally less pathetic than those of Luxembourg, Denmark, Norway, and Belgium, and as pathetic as those of the Czech Republic and Hungary)? Reputable source? Gimme a break.Quote:
but on the reports of the Dutch soldiers