Thanks for that. :) The USSR is very confusing and what I still don't get is how it could be the Ukrainian SSR when it wasn't even a country yet. Unless it became a country after it joined the USSR.
Thanks for that. :) The USSR is very confusing and what I still don't get is how it could be the Ukrainian SSR when it wasn't even a country yet. Unless it became a country after it joined the USSR.
Well, it's a large place, far away from you, and you weren't even born when it existed. So no worries. You could understand modern day Russia and other ex USSR republics better from knowing that though. PS - I edit the article and added more info!Quote:
Originally Posted by UhOhXplode
Also, it's kind of nice to show off my knowledge about this!
Finally some use for otherwise useless info.
Anything else you want to know? ;-)
I had to learn TONS about the USSR in school. What city makes tractors, cars, cotton, lamps or grew different crops..... What different dams, railroads, canals etc were built, why and by whom. How was the USSR governed, etc. Oh, and "what's the difference between a kolkhoz and a sovkhoz?". Missing that, cost me a grade. I still don't know it.
Then just as I left school, the USSR was history!
Then I went to uni and one of the subjects I took was Political science. The hot topic du jour was all the new ex USSR countries. Re-learn everything, including cities which I previously memorized, but now had new names!
I wrote a rather long paper (assigned topic) about harassment and mistreatment of women in Uzbekistan after Uzbek independence. It was very odd to AGAIN come across the same stuff, but now from the perspective of it being a new country and totally different conditions.
Central Asia was suddenly dirt poor, and extreme islam flourished.
The glimpses you got regarding the ethnical situation in the USSR was always mulitultural, happy-clappy bliss with folk costumes, cute songs and primitive people enlightened and educated. The reality might not have been quite that romantic though, and in reality there were probably lots of conflicts brewing under the lid. As the USSR dissolved and broke up, all of this came to the surface, with countries like Saudi Arabia and the US and probably others adding fuel to the flames via "humanitarian" and religious organisations.
And if this was confusing for ME, imagine for the people living through it, for real, while criminality, corruption and shortages were making every day a struggle.
Respect to those who came through all that with their heads still held high!
It's politics, I don't know what you'd expect from a public speech.Quote:
Originally Posted by UhOhXplode
But anyway if you want to see the real masterpiece of political lies, you might wanna read Jen Psaki quotes.
Actually the reasons behind that are mostly economical, I think, energy sector sanctions would be very painful for Russian economy, so Russia is holding its horses, for now.Quote:
Originally Posted by UhOhXplode
Russia was not in a position to do anything about it, that time Russia was a broke state with no power to make any big political decisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by UhOhXplode
Plus I will have to study the history of the USSR anyway. I've already started studying the history of the Russian Empire so I have to finish that too. US history and the history of India were tons easier. Russian history is massive!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
I'm learning where the major lakes, rivers, and mountains are and I learned why the Dnieper river was so important to Kievan-Rus and how that changed to the Volga after the Middle Ages. I also learned about the nuclear test sites in NE Kazakhstan and on Novaya Zemlya and a lot about the Baikonur, Plesetsk, and the new Vostochny cosmodromes. I even learned how to read Russian street maps but that still leaves tons of questions like where important historical places are, the dams, airports, and some history for each of the major cities. I know a little of the histories for Nizhny Novgorod, Saint Peterburg, Omsk, Sevastopol, Simferopol, and Moscow but again, that leaves a lot more.
So yeah, anything you can tell me about Russia and the USSR will be very helpful and very very appreciated. :)
Btw, I can't even imagine what it was like in Russia from 1991-1999 but I read that it was a total nightmare.
Yeah, I wasn't thinking about how messed up everything was when the break-up happened so yeah, it would be difficult for President Putin to explain why it happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by hddscan
Jen Psaki? LOL! She's too stupid to even be funny and she's not a very good liar. But neither are Obama, Kerry, Nuland, Biden, or McCain. They all tell so many lies that they probably can't even manage them all even with a PC. But hey, a lot of the lies are too obvious to even hide.
Anyway, I wish Russia could move in with it's army and help the Donbass. Poroshenko's pure evil and that "anti-terrorist" thing needs to be stopped! It's destroying peoples lives and killing innocent citizens, even kids. It's military political oppression.
I have to correct you. Donbass as well as Black Sea coast regions (Odessa, Nikolayev and Kherson) and also Ekaterinoslav (modern Dnepropetrovsk) region along with Kharkov region were given to Ukraine by Lenin in 1920s. The reason of that was his Marxist logic. Ukraine proper (or Malorossia) was historically agrarian region mostly populated by peasants. According to Marx peasants are very conservative and non-progressive class and can't be the leading force of socialist revolution. Only factory workers can be such a force. And all these regions incorporated into new-created Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic had relatively developed industry and a significant worker population. So one of the main reasons was to make Ukrainian Soviet Republic more proletarian and less agrarian. And the reason of creation of Ukrainian SSR as long as other republics and to make new socialist state look like a union of different states was in Lenin's main goal. His main goal was not only to build communism in former Russian Empire. It was only one of first steps. His main goal was a world proletarian revolution and to make the whole planet a huge socialist republic. It could sound insane if you don't familiar with history of Russian revolution but it's true. So when in 1922 the Soviet Union was created it was made to look like a union of socialist countries, not just one country to give other possible countries where socialist revolution may happen a beacon to move at. At that time there was not any visible border line between ethnic Russian and ethnic Ukrainian regions, people just spoke various Russian and Malorussian dialects using more Russian words at the east and more Ukrainian or Polish words at the west. But since Ukrainian Socialist republic was created the modern Ukrainian language (they took one of the western dialects as official language to make it look more separate from Russian) was made official there to make the new created republic look more like a separate state (the same story with Belorussia). Crimea was transfered from Russian SSR to Ukrainian SSR much later in 1954 and the reasons of that were different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
Also to better understand modern conflict in Ukraine one should bear in mind that the western part of the country never was even in Russian Empire, it was a part of Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth and later a part of Austria-Hungarian Empire. Also note that Ukrainians in western part are not even Russian Orthodox, their Orthodox church was forced to subordinate to Pope while they were ruled by Catholic Poles. Stalin annexed it in 1939 after Molotov-Ribbentrop pact. So the state that appeared on the map in 1991 after collapse of Soviet Union consisted of 3 major parts (Ukraine proper or Malorossia, mostly Russian Donbass+Novorossia (the regions along Black Sea cost) and western Galicia. Also minor parts: Crimea which was almost completely Russian, Ukrainian language wasn't even taught in schools there until 1991 (Tatar minority just started to return from exile in Middle Asia then), Uzhgorod region inhabited by Rusyns, Hungarians and Slovaks and Chernovcy and at some extend Budjak which are partially Romanian/Moldavian. I think that the only way to keep such artificial country whole was to make it a federation, let people at least on regional level to use officially the languages that historically were used in that areas and to provide very balanced policy towards both neighboring major powers: Russia and EU. But idiots who was and especially is in charge in Ukraine make their stake on a strong monoethnic unitarian Ukrainian state and confrontation with Russia. With such a policy it's only a matter of time when modern state of Ukraine will cease to exist.
@ Basil
good and accurate summary in my opinion
with only exception of the last sentence I agree with you (i think the state of Ukraine will continue to exist, albeit maybe not in its current form)
Thanks. I agree that some Ukrainian state will remain but the chances it will return to the status quo which was present until the recent tragic events are zero in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by eisenherz
I only see 2 possibilities for Ukraine.
1. A whole Ukriane (without Crimea) full of only ethnic Ukrainians since all the ethnic-Russian Ukrainians will be living in Russia.
2. A smaller Ukraine (without NovoRossiya).
The extreme anti-Russian violence of the new government and Poroshenko has created too much hate and distrust. Imo, nothing can ever fix that and it will never be forgotten. So if Ukrainians and Russians try to live together after all the violence then it will just lead to new revolutions. With that much violence in only 25 years, can you imagine what can happen in 50.
It's not about the conflict between Ukrainians and Russians. From 1/3 to 1/2 of population of Russian Federation have Ukrainian heritage and vice versa. Many ethnic Ukrainians are defending Donetsk and Lugansk republics while at the same time many ethnic Russians are fighting on nazis side. The conflict is more like between Russophobic Russians/Ukrainians etc. and Pro-Russian Russians/Ukrainians etc. You underestimate the current level of hysterical propaganda in Ukraine. For example my wife's mother called yesterday and asked why Russian army is shelling and air-bombing Donbass and killing civilians. Ordinary people in Ukraine believe that all these atrocities which currently happen made by Russian regular army by personal Putin's orders and poor Ukraine soldiers are defending these lands and trying to save civilians by the cost of their lives. But such blatant lies can't be supported too long, that's why after some time I'm certain most people in Ukraine will realise the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by UhOhXplode
А я боюсь, что это растянется на поколения. Потому что люди очень не любят (или даже просто не могут) отказываться от того, во что свято верили.Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
That's what makes it really confusing and I didn't know there were Russians fighting on the Nazi side. So basically it's just that some Ukrainian citizens want to join with the West and the others want to stay with the East. That sounds a lot like the American civil war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
But yeah, I do know that Poroshenko has been trying to control the media and that Russian journalists are being killed. Well, I hope more people like Mark Franchetti can help get the truth to those people.
Да я говорю об элементарном вранье. То что женщин, стариков и детей на Донбассе сейчас убивают укро-каратели, а не российская армия и лично Путин. В тех масштабах, в которых это происходит, замолчать и свалить всё на Путина просто не получится. Другое дело, что "свидомые" ублюдки всегда найдут этому оправдание. Я же говорю про нормальных людей, для которых убийство беззащитных детей, женщин и стариков не может быть ничем оправдано.Quote:
Originally Posted by lodka
Так я вот и боюсь, что даже в этом многих украинцев будет невозможно убедить. Надеюсь ошибиться...Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
Thanks for the correction. Of course, you are right. I also accidentally wrote ASSR in one place where I should have said SSR. I would encourage anyone non-Russian who doesn't know the basics about how the USSR was organised and governed to inform themselves, it has an impact on how things work today. Also - inform yourselves about the Russian empire, the tsars, the various wars other campaigns and conditions for regular people in those days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
Basically I wanted to quickly get across that Ukraine was not "part of Russia" as Uhox believed, during the USSR times then I went off on a tangent a bit.
It was quite a fundamental misconception, so I really wanted to correct it.
It's amazing how fast really basic things disappear from public knowledge. I really would have taken for granted that anyone knew that the USSR consisted of republics. But of course, Uhox is born after then, and on a different continent..
The background about exactly what was part of Ukraine during Soviet times wasn't really something I was well aware of, but of course, I looked into it when all this started.
During Imperial Russian days of course, most of present day Ukraine was part of Russia, though, but that was before the USSR.
In a way, it was relatively sensitive of the communists, really, to recognise Ukraine and Belarus as separate republics. Probably, they could have got away with saying it was part of Russia... (?) On the other hand, they included some of the non-Slavic Caucasian countries into the Russian SSR despite the fact that they had both different languages and religions. I guess they were "autonomous regions" though?
My guess is that part of Ukraine will go its own way, whether independent or with Russia. But the bulk of it, if not all will remain as an independent nation, I think. People on Western Ukraine and Kiev seem to hate Russia with a vengence right now. They won't become Russians over their dead bodies.
I also think that Putin is silly trying to pretend that what goes on in Donbass has nothing to do with Russia. Clearly it has.
After getting involved and spurring this on in Kiev, the EU now has a responsibility towards Ukraine I think. Whatever is left of it after all this finishes. I have a strong feeling it won't be all they started with, and they already lost Crimea.
The EU ought to support it and fast track it into membership. That's what the initial coup makers obviously dremed of, and its the carrot that was dangled in front of them by all the visiting EU officials. If they want to be an Eastern European EU country, fine - I don't care. Just another in a long line. That's assuming there is even a future for the EU - that's not a given right now.
It would be extreme double standards though, if in Western Europe, we can't even mention the word "immigration politics" without being labelled racist - social death sentence - while in a potential future Ukrainian EU state, they have statues of Nazis, marches etc. The EU really should take a very long look at corruption, oligarchs, extremist nationalism etc before starting to spend money there.
Is he? I think he never said it "has nothing to do with Russia".Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
А есть ли доказательства целенаправленных убийств беззащитных мирных жителей в том регионе вообще, и в частности, подобных убийств совершенных украинской армией? Вы ведь понимаете, что убийства вооруженных агрессоров никак не могут учитываться в этой статистике. Не вижу причин не ликвидировать тех с оружием в руках воюющих против украинской армии в том регионе - и чем скорее те сепаратисты будут все положены, тем скорее наступит мир.Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
Quote:
Originally Posted by lodka
It's more or less what he says in international press conferences.
Or have I missed something?
I think he should be open and say that Russia has legitimate interests in that region, that people there have strong ties to Russia and that Russia is going to - within reasons - look after its own interests and those of people who ask them for help.
Most Europeans / Americans don't really know about the common history, and it's a critical fact. I saw a survey where Americans were asked to point out Ukraine on a map. The most common places they pointed to, were central Siberia, Turkey or just somewhere random in Near Asia. So that's the level of knowledge of many of the people who are nevertheless judging Russia and Putin over Ukraine today.
Lavrov was more open about that when I saw him interviewed on RT and I always prefer when the cards are on the table.
Lavrov was also clear about Western meddling, foreign backing of the coup d'etat etc. I haven't heard Putin say anything about it. All he talks about is "Our Western partners this....", "Our Western partners that".
Maybe it's my naivité believing that an international leader should just "say it as it is". But that's my view anyway.
The problem (as we can see in this thread) is that most people in Europe let alone America don't know enough about the background, the ties or the motivation for any of what happens in Ukraine.
So if Putin pretends that Ukraine and Russia are two "normal" European neighbours, like German and France, then a lot of people will never be aware that this is more than just two countries that just happen to be next to each other.
Plus, as per the other thread, it's automatically assumed that the Russian position must be wrong. "Russophobia". So I think Putin should be honest and straightforward. Because even when he tries to be diplomatic or keep quiet, he is accused of aggressiveness etc.
It's not like he could get any less popular in the West anyway. And surely the people in Eastern Ukraine would appreciate if he said something acknowledging that Russia cares about them - instead it's like "we're not involved, nothing to do with us!"
That's my personal view/opinion. Not very relevant in all this, but it's how it seems to me.
I believe there are video facts that were taken during killings and injures of Russian, French and Italian journalists that prove:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric C.
1. Attackers on those videos are not the rebels
2. There were mortar and heavy small arms fire during the attacks
3. Several civilians, including journalists were killed
Also a UN report that claims that there are 110000 Ukrainians moved to Russia this year and 54000 were replaced inside the country, that proves:
1. Ukrainians that moved trust Russia more than Ukraine - based on numbers
2. Ukrainians are forced to move from their homes - Russian refugee camps prove that, the UN representatives have been there to confirm that there are refugees from Ukraine.
Many refugees also claiming that their homes were shelled almost daily, attacks included airborne raids with helicopters and planes and only Ukrainian army has them.
There is an OSCE report that confirms that Ukrainian military plane hit Luhansk administration building, leaving many civilians dead, as you probably remember Ukrainian officials were saying that there were rebels who launched "Igla" SAM but the rocket hit an air conditioner unit on the building causing all the damage, but it was proved to be a lie, proved by OSCE.
There is also an OSCE report about Odessa massacre, I'm not going into details but again it proves that Ukrainian officials lied about it, you can find and read it if you want.
With so much proof around I think you question is not about finding the truth but about a try to blame rebels and Russia and whitewashing Kiev. I believe it is called propaganda.
I can stand to your shoulder and say that I agree with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
Although I think that politics and political speeches are never straightforward.
Maybe Putin is playing some kind of game, or maybe the uprising was genuinely unexpected and put him in a very hard position.
It seems to me that Russian media has taken a very strong stance in favour of the rebels, while Putin for some reason is sticking with platitudes and non-sequiteurs.
But I think Lavrov has been brilliant and said some really good things. He is an amazingly talented statesman for sure and come across as really sympathetic.
I think what President Putin is doing is very logical and it will help Southeast Ukraine more than a show of force will.
He knows it was the US that started the "Ukrainian crisis". He also knows that the EU is being influenced by the US. President Putin can't get the US on his side but he does have a chance to get the EU on his side.
If he can prove to the EU that Russia isn't arming or training the pro-Russians then they will have to accept the fact that it's mostly just Ukrainian citizens defending themselves, their homes, and their families. When the EU and European countries have enough evidence then they will have to accept the truth - that the "Ukrainian crisis" is really just Ukrainian government oppression of the Ukrainian people and that the US is actively supporting government oppression.
The truth will be revealed and when it is, Europe will know that the US supports military oppression, not democracy. President Putin is helping Europe to learn the truth and that's very important.
Imo, that will do more to help Southeast Ukraine than accusations that the US/EU would only dismiss.
http://cs7006.vk.me/v7006489/15eb1/K5qW2SVsDlQ.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by UhOhXplode
"Дурак-дурак, да умный": пока всё чётко идёт по его плану, если эта карикатура в какой-то мере отражает действительность.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex_krsk
Yes, I think the short-term goal of the US is to convince the EU to apply energy sector sanctions against Russia, killing two birds with one stone: Russia would lose significant part of its revenue and the US could supply the EU with liquefied gas, acquiring new partner in this sector. Hence all the anti-Russian propaganda and calls to decrease dependence on Russian natural gas supplies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lampada
However so far the EU does not want to stop buying cheap Russian gas and switch to expensive liquefied gas and increase its dependence on the US.
In the face of recent events the EU might want to re-think its dependence on the US.
Here is an example of the US reach - BNP Paribas Agrees to Pay Nearly $9 Billion to Resolve U.S. Probe - WSJ
The US "fines" French bank for nearly $9 billions, I mean it is clear that the US wants to control the whole world and dictates its will even to Europe.
This is interesting. Poroshenko's Ministry of Defense is now the RAND Corporation.
President Poroshenko Uses RAND Corporation “Action Plan” for Eastern Ukraine including Ground Assaults and Air Strikes | Global Research
To make it easier for Russians to read the photographed document, I typed it up.
Notice the last part about foreign media. And I thought the US Constitution supported Freedom of the Press. Hmmm.... Maybe I misread the Constitution. Maybe the White House thinks it meant Freedom of Propaganda?Quote:
Confidential document prepared by the RAND corporation:
MEMORANDUM
On the advisable course of action in case the peace plan fails
In case further negotiation with southeast Ukrainian Insurgents should prove futile, the only practicable solution should be a swift crackdown on the separatists and terrorists, to be undertaken irrespective of public opinion or operation costs. Procrastination would dramatically reduce the operation's chances of success.
Possible political and material downsides of an operation should be greatly outweighed by the following probable gains:
- Activists of a pro-Russian political movement get decimated, pro-Russian voters get disorganized.
- A significant share of the region's coal industries get destroyed in the fighting, or are otherwise designated for a quick shutdown, thus relieving Ukraine's budget of the burdensome subsidy costs.
- Shutting down Donbas Industries will mean a stark reduction in gas consumption, and therefore a lesser dependency on Russian energy imports.
- Rinat Akhmetov and his clan's political and economic clout is considerably weakened.
- Ukraine's current economic and social difficulties can be explained to the public as the unwanted yet unavoidable consequences of the military operation, which the Ukrainian government has been keen yet unable to avoid due to the terrorists' Intransigence.
The Presumable Stages of a Military Operation
Stage One: Total isolation of the rebel region
Considering that any resident of the Donetsk Region and the Lugansk Region has had enough time and opportunities to leave the area of hostilities provided that they wanted to do so, anyone who has stayed behind should be regarded as complicit in the unrest, or supportive of it.
Martial law shall be introduced in the defiant regions. All local authorities shall have their competencies terminated, the Constitution shall be suspended. Direct presidential rule shall be imposed.
The region shall be encircled with troops and sealed off entirely from any flow of goods and persons, both incoming and outgoing. Special attention shall be given to areas that border on Russia. Broadcasting services, Internet connection, telephone and mobile communications in the region shall be shut down. A curfew shall be imposed between 20:00 and 06:00. International media staff working in the region shall be subject to a special procedure.
Stage two: Mop-up
The circle of troops around the rebel region shall be tightened gradually. Ground assaults shall be prece4ded by air strikes against the enemy's strategic facilities, artillery and mortar teams, and bunched-up troops. The use of non-conventional arms shall not be ruled out in certain cases in order to ensure smaller casualties among our own personnel.
Settlements shall be liberated one by one, with armor going in first and wiping out the remaining pockets of resistance, shooting to kill anyone who bears arms. Infantry shall move in next to relocate male adults into internment camps. Anyone who attempts to resist shall be executed on the spot. Children aged under 13 and people older than 60 shall be moved to specially equipped facilities in areas that are further away from the zone of the anti-terrorist operation.
Internment camps shall set up outside the settlements that have been cleared, and guarded by units who are considered to be ideologically safe. People featuring traces of combat engagement, like bruises, scuff marks, gunshot and fragment wounds, traces of gunpowder and gun oil on the skin and clothes, shall be tried in court for separatism and terrorism. After a two-month period of internment, the remaining individuals shall be allowed to return to places of their residence and be placed under surveillance by security services.
Stage 3: Back to Normal
Military specialists shall be employed to restore water, heat, power supplies and communications.
The borders shall be strengthened, with checkpoints set up to avoid possible provocations by Russia and to prepare for a massive return of refugees. Those who fled the war zone shall be allowed to return to their place of residence. However, men aged 18-60 shall be checked for possible support for separatists in internment camps. The property of convicted and displaced residents of the Lugansk and Donetsk regions shall be nationalized by the state and later awarded to the servicemen who would be distinguished for valor during the anti-terrorist campaign.
Special focus shall be made on information security, which means that the area of the anti-terrorist campaign shall be made off limits to foreign media. Stories of heroism and courage of Ukraine's armed forces, the National Guard and other armed units in saving civilians in the east of Ukraine from terrorists and armed gangs shall be spread as broadly as possible.
Note: If the active stage of the anti-terrorist operation ends no later than September 1, 2014, martial law shall be lifted no earlier than January 1, 2015.
LOL! "Many ethnic Ukrainians are defending Donetsk and Lugansk republics while at the same time many ethnic Russians are fighting on nazis side. " Huh? ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil77
Some of you guys are good for comedy.
".....why Russian army is shelling and air-bombing Donbass and killing civilians....But such blatant lies can't be supported too long, that's why after some time I'm certain most people in Ukraine will realise the truth" - > where did the separatists get all their artillery and tanks? Just got them out of thin air I suppose.
Putin doesn't give a **** about ethnic Ukrainians or ethnic Russians. This is the same ruler who called ethnic Russians IDIOTS and has laws that prevent that group from having a voice. You are uninformed about your own country. You're not ashamed AT ALL?!? Wow. It's really fascinating.
Wtf are you even talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by 14Russian
That's something newQuote:
Originally Posted by 14Russian
AFAIK the rebels don't have artillery, except mortars, which they got from multiple military bases in Ukraine, there were reports that the rebels have taken control over several of those.
As for the tanks, I believe officially only three tanks were seen to be in possession of rebels, both sides confirmed that, and those tanks were T64BV models and only Ukraine has them. And Kiev's army already claimed that they have destroyed two out three of those tanks, so it is unclear what is all the fuss about?
There were also unconfirmed reports that the rebels have taken control over military repair base in Artyomovsk and got themselves over 200 tanks in semi-working conditions and several "Grad" rocket launchers, but again, it's unconfirmed
Да что ты говоришь. В его планах было занять крымские военные базы, а потом главной целью стало спровоцировать военное вторжение России на территорию Украины (этого некоторые и сейчас добиваются, устраивая прилеты осколков от снарядов на российскую территорию) и устроить всемирную истерию по этому поводу.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lampada
Ни то, ни другое не удалось. "Вигвам называется".
The 3 tanks are T-64BV's, a Ukrainian military upgrade of the old Soviet T-64. The fact that they were seen crossing into Ukraine doesn't exclude the possibility that they coulda crossed into Russia first. The Ukrainian army has been caught driving APC's into Russia. The rest of the artillery coulda been taken from any Ukrainian base or warehouse. It's also common practice to take artillery from captured enemy troops... or maybe even the ones that surrendered and changed sides?Quote:
Originally Posted by 14Russian
1. Putin doesn't care about ethnic Ukrainians. (emotional language isn't required in any debate)Quote:
Originally Posted by 14Russian
2. Putin doesn't care about ethnic Russians.
3. This is the same ruler who called ethnic Russians idiots...
4. and has laws that prevent that group from having a voice.
5. You are uninformed about your own country.
You've made 5 completely unsupported claims. If you don't back them up with concrete evidence, they will be summarily dismissed.
Also, tell me how much you knew about the PRISM surveillance system, the international wiretapping, and the deaths of the Reuters journalists (by friendly fire) before the Manning/Snowden leaks.
If you can't provide an answer and proof of your early knowledge of those events, then I will have to conclude that "You are uninformed about your own country.".
I saw the RAND document on RT. Flabbergasted!
I am very propganda conscious so I immediately read it looking for signs that it was fake. I.e. dodgy English. But as far as I can tell, it's got every sign of being compiled by a young think-tank employee with legal training "shall this, "shall that".
I noticed no non-native English grammar mistakes, missed definite articles, incorrectly used words or expressions or anything to indicate that anyone other than a young, reasonably educated think tank employee, with some limited legal background wrote this. Exactly as you would expect if it was genuine.
Native English speakers, do you agree with my assessment of language?
If it was a plant, it's very unlikely that it would be in native English with the exact type of tone you'd expect from the type of employee who'd write something like that.
Also the fact that it doesn't seem well aqcuainted with real conditions in Ukraine, is probably a further confirmation that it's genuine; a Ukrainian or Russian who hypothetically created this for propaganda reasons would be better informed about the real situation in Ukraine.
The fact that RAND denies writing it, means nothing.
This is exactly how the US does these types of operations; through instructions provided by privately or gov't funded think tanks.
It's how the flower and colour revolutions are planned.
Obviously now that it's been revealed, they'll have to re-rig the plan so it's not too obvious when it's later implemented.
http://www.imagesup.net/?di=114045635078
http://s28.postimg.org/jzsc6byl9/image.jpg
@14Russian: I'll let your rant slip because I assume you were drunk when you wrote it. Feel free to clarify what you mean when you sobered up because it made no sense whatsoever.
@hddscan: You are a breath of well needed fresh air in this forum for sure. Keep it up!
Regargless of is it fake or not, it's pretty predictable, not surprising and quite boring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanna
These plans were pretty obvious from the very beginning.
Unfortuntely we are "hooked" on the USA in Europe.Quote:
Originally Posted by hddscan
If the USA is heroin, we are junkies.
It will take a long time to 1) admit the problem, 2) kick the habit, 3) start a new life with sound relationships.
The USA spies on us, tricks or bullies us into its idiotic and consistently failed wars and is responsible --- deliberately or not --- for some very disturbing cultural and moral developments in Europe.
Yet we continue coming back for more. We are guilty of this ourselves and NOTHING seems to be able to snap most people out of it. Wikileaks and Snowden changed little.
Most people in Western Europe and lately also Eastern Europe grew up surrounded by:Quote:
“We do not merely destroy our enemies; we change them.”
― George Orwell, 1984
American food
American beverages
American style clothing
American music
American films
American TV
American computer games
American military bases
American culture
American values
...and more
When Europe did this to Asia, Africa and South America we called it by its rightful names: Imperialism and colonialism. But this is on a grander scale and not acknowledged for what it is.
If a German person puts on tracht he's considered a backwards nerd. But nobody thinks twice if he wears jeans and a T shirt with an American slogan, in English.
In England, people dancing traditional English dances are often accused of being racist. But nobody thinks twice if they dance to hip-hop or disco.
In Sweden, kids nowadays are swearing in English. They'd choose a McDonald's Happy Meal over a traditional healthy meal of fresh fish and newly picked mushrooms.
Every kid on the European continent knows Disney's characters. But the traditional fairytales are being forgotten. The kids can sing the tunes to these films, but not traditional songs that existed for hundreds of years.
I could go on forever with examples like this.
I'm not saying this is America's fault exclusively or that all of it is deliberate. We are guilty for allowing it to happen.
Americans, please don't take this as an insult on your culture, it isn't. American culture in small doses, or in the country where it belongs is an amazing thing that I greatly appreciate.
But all this has created a situation where America can get away with ANYTHING in Europe. We are US zombies! I doubt if a massacre perpetrated by the US in central London, Paris or Berlin would make people snap out of it. It would be justified as anti-terrorist or a tragic accident in the US controlled media and people would get back to their Cokes, computer games and Hollywood films.
The US energy plan will fall on geographical and economical realities though.
To you maybe, to me they weren't, and what's more its proof that might convince English speaking people who believe that the Kiev gov't is conducting an anti-terrorist operation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex_krsk
Some good news coming, (in case it's not fake, of course) :
Ukraine claims victory as rebel fighters reportedly flee Slavyansk - Telegraph
Ukraine claims victory as rebel fighters reportedly flee Slavyansk
Rebel fighters abandoned their most important stronghold in the Donetsk region, according to reports in local media
Yes, what they called it was a "tactical retreat", but according to some news sources, it's just an euphemism for defeat. I hope Ukraine gets back its integrity pretty soon!
Now, this statement of one of the separatists should get you, Russians, really angry:
“Kutuzov also retreated, as was the plan,” he said, In an apparent reference to the 1812 battle of Borodino. “Russians only retreat before a decisive victory.”
They intentionally use every opportunity to boast about their alleged links to your country, deliberately making an international deal out of a local criminal gang thing. What do you say?
Wow, where is a moderator when you need one?:shocked2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric C.
:D :D :D :DQuote:
Originally Posted by hddscan
Why? If I were Russian, what that idiot said would get me real pissed off...Quote:
Originally Posted by hddscan
I mean, they're trying to get your country into their criminal gang stuff, isn't that enough???
Лампада, ты же ж напишешь же ж, что называть людей идиотами is not nice, правда ж ведь?:roll:Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric C.
Украинец, пытающийся пропагандировать русского, — всё равно, что папуас, пытающийся пропагандировать этнолога. (c)Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric C.
When you asked us "But what about you, Russian guys? So you ARE involved, or still not?", we answered here (although you seem to not care about our replies). Now I have a question to you, "What about YOU? Are YOU involved? What is YOUR interest if you HOPE something will happen in Ukraine?" Your position is Russophobic, still you can write a very good Russian, and you *hope* about some events in Ukraine. I'm beginning to have a guess...Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric C.