Thread: Local people comment what happened in Mariupol at 9th May (video) + related

Originally Posted by Basil77

I have to correct you. Donbass as well as Black Sea coast regions (Odessa, Nikolayev and Kherson) and also Ekaterinoslav...

Thanks for the correction. Of course, you are right. I also accidentally wrote ASSR in one place where I should have said SSR. I would encourage anyone non-Russian who doesn't know the basics about how the USSR was organised and governed to inform themselves, it has an impact on how things work today. Also - inform yourselves about the Russian empire, the tsars, the various wars other campaigns and conditions for regular people in those days.

Basically I wanted to quickly get across that Ukraine was not "part of Russia" as Uhox believed, during the USSR times then I went off on a tangent a bit.
It was quite a fundamental misconception, so I really wanted to correct it.
It's amazing how fast really basic things disappear from public knowledge. I really would have taken for granted that anyone knew that the USSR consisted of republics. But of course, Uhox is born after then, and on a different continent..

The background about exactly what was part of Ukraine during Soviet times wasn't really something I was well aware of, but of course, I looked into it when all this started.

During Imperial Russian days of course, most of present day Ukraine was part of Russia, though, but that was before the USSR.

In a way, it was relatively sensitive of the communists, really, to recognise Ukraine and Belarus as separate republics. Probably, they could have got away with saying it was part of Russia... (?) On the other hand, they included some of the non-Slavic Caucasian countries into the Russian SSR despite the fact that they had both different languages and religions. I guess they were "autonomous regions" though?

My guess is that part of Ukraine will go its own way, whether independent or with Russia. But the bulk of it, if not all will remain as an independent nation, I think. People on Western Ukraine and Kiev seem to hate Russia with a vengence right now. They won't become Russians over their dead bodies.

I also think that Putin is silly trying to pretend that what goes on in Donbass has nothing to do with Russia. Clearly it has.

After getting involved and spurring this on in Kiev, the EU now has a responsibility towards Ukraine I think. Whatever is left of it after all this finishes. I have a strong feeling it won't be all they started with, and they already lost Crimea.

The EU ought to support it and fast track it into membership. That's what the initial coup makers obviously dremed of, and its the carrot that was dangled in front of them by all the visiting EU officials. If they want to be an Eastern European EU country, fine - I don't care. Just another in a long line. That's assuming there is even a future for the EU - that's not a given right now.

It would be extreme double standards though, if in Western Europe, we can't even mention the word "immigration politics" without being labelled racist - social death sentence - while in a potential future Ukrainian EU state, they have statues of Nazis, marches etc. The EU really should take a very long look at corruption, oligarchs, extremist nationalism etc before starting to spend money there.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I also think that Putin is silly trying to pretend that what goes on in Donbass has nothing to do with Russia.

Is he? I think he never said it "has nothing to do with Russia".

Originally Posted by lodka

Is he? I think he never said it "has nothing to do with Russia".

It's more or less what he says in international press conferences.
Or have I missed something?

I think he should be open and say that Russia has legitimate interests in that region, that people there have strong ties to Russia and that Russia is going to - within reasons - look after its own interests and those of people who ask them for help.

Most Europeans / Americans don't really know about the common history, and it's a critical fact. I saw a survey where Americans were asked to point out Ukraine on a map. The most common places they pointed to, were central Siberia, Turkey or just somewhere random in Near Asia. So that's the level of knowledge of many of the people who are nevertheless judging Russia and Putin over Ukraine today.

Lavrov was more open about that when I saw him interviewed on RT and I always prefer when the cards are on the table.

Lavrov was also clear about Western meddling, foreign backing of the coup d'etat etc. I haven't heard Putin say anything about it. All he talks about is "Our Western partners this....", "Our Western partners that".

Maybe it's my naivité believing that an international leader should just "say it as it is". But that's my view anyway.

The problem (as we can see in this thread) is that most people in Europe let alone America don't know enough about the background, the ties or the motivation for any of what happens in Ukraine.

So if Putin pretends that Ukraine and Russia are two "normal" European neighbours, like German and France, then a lot of people will never be aware that this is more than just two countries that just happen to be next to each other.

Plus, as per the other thread, it's automatically assumed that the Russian position must be wrong. "Russophobia". So I think Putin should be honest and straightforward. Because even when he tries to be diplomatic or keep quiet, he is accused of aggressiveness etc.

It's not like he could get any less popular in the West anyway. And surely the people in Eastern Ukraine would appreciate if he said something acknowledging that Russia cares about them - instead it's like "we're not involved, nothing to do with us!"

That's my personal view/opinion. Not very relevant in all this, but it's how it seems to me.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I think he should be open and say that Russia has legitimate interests in that region, that people there have strong ties to Russia and that Russia is going to - within reasons - look after its own interests and those of people who ask them for help.

I can stand to your shoulder and say that I agree with that.
Although I think that politics and political speeches are never straightforward.