Thread: Local people comment what happened in Mariupol at 9th May (video) + related

The reason is obvious: educated people can have an idea of perspectives and real consequences of making our region a rogue state under the control of Russian militaries (there are three such states already so we can compare). Less educated people don't think about that, they just feel abused by Kiev's rebellion and say "why can't we do the same?"

The Donetsk region voted 89.07% for self-determination. For Lugansk, it was 96.2%. In our country, people are very proud of the phrase "We the people.". Well, the people have spoken in those regions.
So who else has an idea of perspectives and real consequences? Kids being bullied in school. They know they'll be outcasts if they report it so a lot of them just let it continue. One was even arrested recently for speaking out.
There's very obvious prejudice in the West and the UN towards ethnic Russians so the only real chance that those 89.07% and 96.2% have is to turn to the nations that support them.
You won't find that in the classroom criteria for "perspectives and real consequences" but hey, classrooms aren't where real-life happens.

So maybe western Ukraine will have a better chance with the West but imo, eastern Ukraine has made the only intelligent choice that was available for them.
Also imo, Ukraine will never survive as a single country. The ethnic divide is way too extreme and all the hate speech I've heard is unbelievable. I can't even imagine what it would take to fix that.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

The Donetsk region voted 89.07% for self-determination. For Lugansk, it was 96.2%. In our country, people are very proud of the phrase "We the people.". Well, the people have spoken in those regions.
So who else has an idea of perspectives and real consequences? Kids being bullied in school. They know they'll be outcasts if they report it so a lot of them just let it continue. One was even arrested recently for speaking out.
There's very obvious prejudice in the West and the UN towards ethnic Russians so the only real chance that those 89.07% and 96.2% have is to turn to the nations that support them.
You won't find that in the classroom criteria for "perspectives and real consequences" but hey, classrooms aren't where real-life happens.

These self-style people's republics have already asked Russia to bring them back into the fold today. Actually, it’s the ultimate sanity check for Putin now. He must unequivocally reject the request and reiterate the claim for dialog about federalization with Kiev. Otherwise, consequence for his country may be very close to dire.))

Originally Posted by diogen_

Actually, it’s the ultimate sanity check for Putin now. He must unequivocally reject the request and reiterate the claim for dialog about federalization with Kiev.

Has he passed the check now?

Originally Posted by www.bbc.co.uk/russian/rolling_news/2014/05/140512_rn_mid_referendum.shtml

По мнению представителей МИД, претворение в жизнь итогов референдумов должно проходить в рамках диалога между Киевом, Донецком и Луганском.

Originally Posted by diogen_

These self-style people's republics have already asked Russia to bring them back into the fold today. Actually, it’s the ultimate sanity check for Putin now. He must unequivocally reject the request and reiterate the claim for dialog about federalization with Kiev. Otherwise, consequence for his country may be very close to dire.))

"his country" ? Aren't you Russian? Or are you Ukrainian?

I too think he should continue to push for federalization. Politically it's definitely the thing to do.

But on the other hand, I wouldn't lose any sleep if Russia annexed either. That would teach the USA once and for all, about the price of engineering coup d'etats in Europe. I mean, if they can do this in Ukraine, who in Europe is next?

What do most people in Russia think he should do?

At the same time, I also think Putin is a bit cruel towards the people in these regions. After what they saw happening on Crimea, they probably thought there was a good chance they could trigger something similar.
And now, it looks like it's not going to be possible? If he had made it completely clear from Day 1 that Russia would never annex them, a lot of chaos could have been prevented, and lives saved. So it seems unfair to "lead them on" and then pull back.

If this had been the 18th century, Russia (and/or someone else!) would have conquered all, or parts of Ukraine by now. It's served up on a silver platter, practically. As countries goes, it as young as a child, and it's been on artificial breathing all its life. It just doesn't seem to be able to stand on its own feet. But alas, today in the 21st century, we don't do that (well, the US does, sort of.. but no other country, really)

If Russia does anything, it will be called an invasion. If NATO somehow figures out a way to get a legitmate foothold in Ukraine, it will be called "stabilisation" or "peacekeeping" or something like that.

As for the price that Russia would have to pay: I don't think much more can be done. Serious sanctions against Russia are not an option in Europe. The rhetoric is already at the level of comparing Putin with Hitler, so how much worse can that get; not much.... or?

Originally Posted by Crocodile

Has he passed the check now?

I've enjoyed your argumentation in this question - always wanted to see you come out squarely in one camp or another and on Crimea etc, you finally did. It doesn't make your posts any less interesting, so keep it up!
Hard to follow all of it for me though, but nonetheless. No more devils advocate crocodile..

I am more like you normally are, in this. I don't really know who's right or wrong and I can see both sides of the argument. I sway back and forth.

Originally Posted by diogen_

Not yet,IMHO. He still needs formally postpone reject the plea to show himself as a proponent of Ukraine’s territorial integrity. Croc, remember his final goal is not DPR & LPR but Novorossia as a whole. Blessing is in disguise.))

Que? What is Novorussia (I can guess, but I never heard it, where does the expression come from..? )

From the completely detached, political science perspective, this is fascinating because nobody really pulled off an actual land grab in Europe since 1939 -1945.... Putin just did it in Crimea, but without anybody dying and with more or less the full support of the population. It really is genius work, from a Political Science perspective.
But part of being a Political Science genius is to quit when you are ahead. Not get greedy and lose all.

The US was genius too, when it "won" the Cold War despite having less noble ideals and all of that, essentially making all of Eastern Europe just resign and hand themselves over to the American sphere, including NATO membership etc. And then getting the Soviet Union into an economical competiton it couldn't win.
But still, none of the areas became American territory like Crimea became Russian.
The areas became under strong US influence, in NATO but still with their own borders.

I thought that maybe the time of land-grabbing wars in Europe are over, the new way is just who controls the economy and which foreign bases are on that country's territory?
But here it's actual land changing names.

If Russia DID go into Ukraine, it wouldn't meet any serious resistance though, would it? Hardly much from locals and probably not much from the UA army... NATO cannot enter Ukraine as far as I know.

So this is like when you are trying to diet and somebody brings you chocolate. Just say no!

Originally Posted by Basil77

Another video from Mariupol (opinion of people standing in line to give their vote at referendum):

Omg, the accent of the British reporter, lol ! I guess they had to pull him out of the closet after Ukraine wouldn't allow entry to the regular native speaking reporters. But well done him to get these ladies to open up and speak their minds!

Your first clip I couldn't follow, but this I more or less understand.

However, from a Western perspective, anything that RT says is "Russian propaganda". So.......

Originally Posted by Hanna

Que? What is Novorussia (I can guess, but I never heard it, where does the expression come from..? )

Novorossiya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Don't miss "Present-day References" section.

Originally Posted by Hanna

"his country" ? Aren't you Russian? Or are you Ukrainian?

It’s a kind of Freudian slip. You may probably need to read “this” instead of “his”. By the way, who do you believe is in charge of everything in Russia? As far as the second part of your question, it’s enough to say that I’m “pro-Russian” but I’d rather observe events from the bird’s-eye position in order not to fall under the bad influence of unscrupulous propaganda machine of any side.)))

Originally Posted by Hanna

I too think he should continue to push for federalization. Politically it's definitely the thing to do.

You should be fully aware that federalization is just one small step from “the abyss of separation”. Even the smallest argument among the provinces might ignite the urge toward independence for some of them, with all the state institutions ready for such fast-track splitting. I’m curious, are you really ready to recommend such a dangerous game plan for Ukraine? What about its territorial integrity?))

Originally Posted by Hanna

But on the other hand, I wouldn't lose any sleep if Russia annexed either. That would teach the USA once and for all, about the price of engineering coup d'etats in Europe. I mean, if they can do this in Ukraine, who in Europe is next?

What do most people in Russia think he should do?

Most Russians think what media tell them to think. As for me, Putin should think first and foremost about Russians in Russia, namely, how to avoid any involvement of regular troops to the conflict, escape further sanctions from the west, and bargain as much as possible political concessions from Poroshenko in exchange for cheaper Russian gas.

But I don't think he should bring Crimea back to Ukraine. They don't deserve it.

Originally Posted by diogen_

You should be fully aware that federalization is just one small step from “the abyss of separation”. Even the smallest argument among the provinces might ignite the urge toward independence for some of them, with all the state institutions ready for such fast-track splitting. I’m curious, are you really ready to recommend such a dangerous game plan for Ukraine? What about its territorial integrity?))

Great post, but I don't know why federalization should be such a threat to Kiev?
Lots of countries are federations and nobody is suggesting they are about to split up.. The USA, Switzerland with its cantons that have great independence, Germany more or less where some areas are run very differently from others and the UK functions as a federal state with local governments in Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast and the central government in London.

It seems like a sensible way to keep a country together, despite the fact that different parts of the country have different interests.

Originally Posted by Hanna

but I don't know why federalization should be such a threat to Kiev?

From what I heard Ukrainian politicians say, in essence - it's easier for Russia to eat the Ukraine up bit by bit.

Originally Posted by UhOhXplode

The Donetsk region voted 89.07% for self-determination. For Lugansk, it was 96.2%.

Ok, the question is, how many percent participated, how honest was the vote counting etc...?
This to me seems less clearcut than Crimea.
It very much appears like those who are against self determination did not bother voting. The question is how many were that?

For this particular referendum, sure it gives an indication, but I don't have the impression that it would stand for much international scrutiny, whereas Crimea would have...

Not to say it's phony or that they deliberately cheated - I wouldn't know, and clearly a lot of people are FOR.
But what precisely did they vote for? They had nothing concrete beyond "more self-determination" and after the referendum the first thing they do is call Moscow and ask for annexation.

Although I sympathise with these people it's just not as professional or convincing as it could be.
Which is why it seems ludicrous to believe that Russia is pulling the strings.

And I pity the leaders of the Donetsk and Lugansk people states.
If they can't pull something off, they are at risk of some very long prison sentences I imagine.

All of this makes me think of a REAL and genuine working class uprising situation. Even the language they use. It's not polished and it's not impressive. Remains to see what they can pull off and whether they are all alone or have friends in Russia.... I have a lot of sympathy for them.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Ok, the question is, how many percent participated, how honest was the vote counting etc...?
This to me seems less clearcut than Crimea.
It very much appears like those who are against self determination did not bother voting. The question is how many were that?

A good video about that: