Зато мы узнаем "правду" о коммунистических временах.
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Just like all dictators, he had his ups and downs.
Говорухин необъективен. Нехорошо ради поддержки своих взглядов использовать такие материалы, в которых произвольно обращаются с цифрами.
Как ты понимаешь, для политика нет необходимости использовать точные материалы. Для сторонников нужны слова похлеще, а противники всё равно тебя не слушают, что бы ты не сказал. Или обвиняют во лжи. Или в ангажированности. Политик должен работать на "свою" аудиторию. А если ему задают неудобный вопрос, он должен отвечать на совсем другой вопрос, причём заранее заготовленным ответом. Политику нужно захватить и удержать власть, а не найти некую объективную правду, которой всё равно не существует. ;)
Вот, допустим, приходит толпа и говорит: "Эй, чувак, выборы-то шулерские, как же так?" А ты им в ответ и вмажь посильнее: "А вам что - надоело в Египет ездить отдыхать?!!" Толпа почешет в затылке, да и разойдётся восвояси. Вот тогда всё будет комильфо. ;)
Molodets
The question about Lenin is too complex. Very complex. People, who knows history well, discuss it even for now.
I think, you willn't get the correct answer on this forum.
Let me give you two advices to get the truth by yourself.
At first, you must specify your question. I think, you mean "good or bad" characteristic not for Lenin's person himself, but for the result of his actions for russian history, yea?
At the second, you MUST learn about conditions and state of Russia country at this time. Only after this you may think about his actions and results.
But, what isn't discussable - it that Lenin was greatest historical actor in the world history of XX-XXI centuries. "Greatest" didn't mean "good" or "bad", I mean that most of the further history (especially Cold War) was consequences of Russian revolution in 1917.
Why not "two advices" , but "two pieces of advice "? Is "advice" not(or un?)computable pronounce?
That's just a thing about English. Some words need to have "a piece of" in front of them. You cannot use them alone.
The only example I can think of right now is "information" but there are plenty more.
You have to say "a piece of information" not just "an information" (that's wrong).
It only applies to a few words, so you can memorize all of them.
В моих мыслях "pronounce" и "noun" почему-то стали эквивалентны. Мой словарный запас английских слов очень беден. Я похож на ту собаку, которая почти всё понимает, только сказать ничего не может.
Я хотел выяснить, применяется ли форма "a piece of ..." только к неисчисляемым существительным. Судя по ответам - это действительно так.
I doubt if the Romanovs or the Tsars can industrialize the Soviet Union with hundreds of millions of tractors and harvesters. Buying these tractors from USA would be the natural result if the Tsar were then in power. Whom do you empower but America. Lenin was a Marxist in good faith. All he wanted to was to further the cause without malice aforethought.. I think he was a good man..
Very slow pace of industrialization. The state planner allocated just enough resources for basic needs which were very sufficient and allocated most of the resources on a rapid electrification program, construction of dams, and irrigation engines, etc. If I were a state planner in future communist Philippines, I would only allocate 10% of what capitalist system allocate to filmmaking under free enterprise which are waste given that these films result in accounting losses and have no intellectual nor ethical value...Waste, my friend, is negligible under state planning.
Are you serious about advocating the central state planning? Also, the claim of "basic needs which were very sufficient" needs more support. To the best of my knowledge, the industrialization (First Five-Year Plan (Soviet Union) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) strangely was followed by the famine (Soviet famine of 1932–1933 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) which "killed many millions". And the famine strangely did not stop the central planners from proceeding with the Second Five-Year plan to further industrialize the country (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%...82%D0%BA%D0%B0). That's what I meant when mentioning that the industrialization came at a price. The price of millions dead from hunger. Men, women and children. So far so good for the rapid industrialization?
I want to be as polite as I would like to be. The alleged famine and deaths were timed when Hitler invaded Stalingard, Leningard and the food basket, Ukraine. Ten years after the war, were there famine casualties? None!
Yesterday was my nomination to act as Chairman of the Communist Party of the Philippines-New People's Army. I don't know what transpired last night. But rumours were I was a close second. Hence, maybe I would be next. I am serious because there were serious flaws in the way Americans portray Stalin and Lenin. They were all false rumours. As I said I want to be as polite as you want me to be. No offense.
I will also try to be as polite as possible. You see, during the famine of 1932-1933 caused by the rapid industrialization policy, Hitler was unable to invade neither Stalingard, nor Leningard nor the food basket, Ukraine. He was only appointed chancellor of Germany on January 1933 (Adolf Hitler - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). The invasions you're talking about happened almost a decade later.
Don't worry, I can't be offended. :D Let me clear the atmosphere a little bit. Lenin didn't start industrialization. On the opposite, Lenin started the New Economic Policy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia which actually meant a step back to the capitalism. That helped to overcome the shortage of food cause by the civil war. By the time Stalin started the industrialization, there was no widespread shortage of food. But, the country was an agrarian country. The industrialization meant putting an end to the New Economic Policy drastically increasing the industrial output at the expense of drastically lowering the agrarian output. That caused the famine, but the Politbureau headed by Stalin didn't care much, because mostly the famine killed the peasants, which by that time were by large part the foes of the Communist regime. So, like you said, there are lots of false rumours about Lenin and Stalin. ;)
I'm confident the Communist Party of the Philippines would be lucky to have you as the Chairman. By all means, that would continue the glorious tradition of having the Communist Party rulers, whose education leaves a lot to be desired. ;)
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/244...e0001ux.th.jpg
I SHOULD HAVE BEEN IN THE ARMY!! SERIOUSLY! (IMAGINE IF I WERE DRAFTED BEFORE USSR IMPLODED?)
Ребята, вы настоящие бизоны! Индустриализация против социализма - это сильное противопоставление! :shout:
Собственно, я не бизон, но про остальных ничего не могу сказать. :)
Штука в том, что индустриализация приводится как одно из самых значимых достижений Советской власти. Современная пропаганда величия СССР стоит на трёх китах: индустриализация, победа над Германией и достижения в области науки и спорта. Я лишь хотел показать, что пропаганда всегда остаётся лишь пропагандой, а отнюдь не истиной в последней инстанции. И любой из трёх китов тому пример.
If you didn't know history and just looked at WW2 casualties and quality of life now - you might think that Germany won WW2...Quote:
победа над Германией
Well, that is another common misconception. Germany did not achieve its goals in the WWII, so it lost in the war. The amount of casualties is never a goal in a war, but a price. The wars are being started by the politicians to achieve their own goals and the goals of the power group they represent. And those goals are being transformed to the so-called 'national interests' by the very same group. The WWII had been started by the power clique naming itself the 3rd Reich and their goals had not ultimately been achieved - the group had lost power and many lives. Nothing to do with the amount of casualties and the quality of life of modern Germany.
Just started reading "Russia in the Shadows" by Wells. Recommend to anyone, who want to get feeling about the environment that Lenin was acting in.
I realize that I have got almost no idea about the life in Russia at those times, so any view from outside is the valuable piece of information.
Yes Crocodile - I know all of this.
But Russian/USSR propaganda about so called "victory" still looks ridiculous if you look at Russia and Germany/Japan/Italy today.
I heard story/anecdote somewhere about a tourist from USSR who visited West Germany.
And when he went into supermarket he fainted with words "Но мы же победили!"
Yeah, that's an old joke (dated early 80s) strongly associated with the similar "sausage" joke. In both cases, I don't think the stories are real, since those people who had the permission to go abroad to visit the West Germany lived pretty well in USSR as well. And sometimes a way better than an average person in West Germany, so they couldn't really faint. An ordinary people weren't allowed out of the "socialist camp". The exception being those whose work was closely associated with traveling, like ballet/circus/musicians, sailors, etc. But those were under rather strict control and also were unable to visit a supermarket.
Those jokes were made up and they reflect the sad truth that the quality of life in the USSR was typically worse than in the European/US/Japan capitalist countries. However, the capitalism does not necessarily means a high quality of life for everybody. Another truth some of the late-80 political activists didn't know. The sad consequences followed.
As for the victory over the Nazi Germany, I don't think it's fair to bring it with respect to the quality-of-life context. Had the USSR lost to the Nazi Germany, I don't think the quality of life in the territories which made up the USSR would change for better. I think rather opposite is true. It is well-known, that some of the territories in Ukraine had greeted Nazis with smile and flowers as they remembered the time Ukraine was under Keizer Germany occupation after the 1917 and the changes that followed after Germans left. But, the Nazis showed their goals were different and, as a result, they got partisans stabbing their backs.
Well - USSR and Nazi Germany themselves started this war as allies (Molotov-Ribbentrop pact).Quote:
Had the USSR lost to the Nazi Germany, I don't think the quality of life in the territories which made up the USSR would change for better.
And what difference does it make in our discussion? Alright, so in a wider sense both were the aggressors. The Nazi Germany started the war having the goals of expansion as much as the USSR. By the end of the war the Nazi Germany shrunk and the USSR expanded. As an aggressor, the USSR achieved more of its goals than the Nazi Germany. But whenever the victory over the Nazi Germany is praised as a achievement of the USSR, the Nazi Germany was clearly an aggressor and the USSR was a defender, thus making the part of the WWII between the summer of 1941 to the spring of the 1945 a patriotic war for the USSR. Of course, later the same year 1945 the USSR became aggressor assaulting Japan, but that's another story, which is usually not stated as one of the greatest achievements of the USSR. Even though it was a great victory. The entire Japanses army which was the major force on the continent had been destroyed in four weeks.
И все же, то что над Рейхстагом взвился красный флаг, это очень неплохо. Правда сейчас говорят, что водрузили его вовсе не Егоров и Кантария, которых принято показывать на всех открытках, но это уже внутреннее дело.
http://img15.nnm.ru/3/3/2/3/8/ae36dd...175aa067fe.jpg
Speaking about Lenin, has anyone been to the mausoleum and seen his body?
What did you think of the experience?
What, if anything, did you get out of it?
I think that is a tourist activity that I would NOT do in Moscow. I don't fancy looking at a dead body and I have read somewhere that there are terrible queues.
I visited the Mausoleum ten years ago. It is solemn but a bit creepy experience. After waiting in a long queue you enter the underground crypt and pass slowly in pitch darkness round the opened coffin protected by bulletproof glass and illuminated by bleak light. After that you emerge on the surface again and, squinting your eyes, find yourself strolling along the Kremlin wall necropolis with tombs of Soviet leaders - Stalin, Brezhnev, Andropov etc. There are also mass graves of revolutionary fighters and many urns with ashes of famous people: writer Maxim Gorky, aircraft test pilot Valery Chkalov, the father of the Soviet atomic bomb Igor Kurchatov, rocket engineer Sergei Korolev, the first cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin and marshal of the Soviet Union Georgy Zhukov, to name just a few.
Some tips for prospective visitors. It is not allowed to stop and stare or even talk while inside, and you'll be warned if you don't comply with the rules. Also guards at the entrance will stop you if you're carrying any bags, so you should leave your stuff somewhere, for example in the paid cloakroom, before joining the queue.
Помню бы еще ребенком, длинная очередь в 6:00 утра в Александровском саду и люди в штатском, которые шныряли в толпе грубым образом вытаскивали руки посетителей из их (посетителей) карманов. Сумки и прочие вещи, в т.ч. Все что было в карманах нужно было сдать в бесплатную камеру хранения. Говорят, так стало после того, как кто-то посетителей запустил в Ленина молоток. У меня в кармане были сигареты и я пришел просто в ужас, но благо мои карманы никто не проверял.
На подходе к Мавзолею останавливаться было уже нельзя, нужно было идти только вперед. Подозрительных лиц грубо вытаскивали из толпы и куда-то уводили потом "вливали" обратно в толпу.
Когда мы стали спускаться, я увидел, что в каждому углу лестничного пролета тоже стоит часовой. И возле горбницы еще кажется 4 человека, два спереди и два сзади (насчет задних двух я, вообще говоря, не уверен). Вышли мы откуда-то с другой стороны, фактически это как в подземном переходе - спустился, прошел по коридору, попутно взглянул на тело Ленина и поднялся на другом конце.
Что меня удивило тогда, что у Ленина была очень маленькая головенка. Я почему-то думал что у Ленина голова будет огромных размеров.
http://synews.ru/uploads/posts/2009-...enin-gorki.jpg
Interesting story mishau! I guess Lenin was a fairly short man then? I remember somebody else who had visited there commenting on the same thing.
Apparently the USSR started a bit of a trend when they decided to keep Lenin on display like this. Several Communist countries did the same thing when their leaders died. I read an article on this - apparently it's extremely expensive to preserve a dead body year after year.
Don't know what Russians in general think of keeping Lenin like this, but personally I really think it's a bit morbid. I would not want a dead body to be one one the main tourist attractions in my city.....
Но печник - душа живая,- Знай меня, не лыком шит! - Припугнуть еще желая: - Как фамилия? - кричит.
Тот вздохнул, пожал плечами:
Лысый, ростом невелик.
Ленин,- просто отвечает.
Ленин?! - Тут и сел старик.
(А. Твардовский. "Ленин и печник", 1966)
Это даже как-то не вполне в православных обычаях. Странно смотреть на играющего ныне в православие дядюшку Зю
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5AOnbTIXLQ
Uploaded by allpowertothesoviets on Jan 31, 2010Музыка: С. Туликов, Текст: Л. Ошанин
Music: S. Tulikov, Lyrics: L. Oshanin
День за днем идут года -
Зори новых поколений, -
Но никто и никогда
Не забудет имя ЛЕНИН.
Припев:
Ленин всегда живой,
Ленин всегда с тобой -
В горе, в надежде и радости.
Ленин в твоей весне,
В каждом счастливом дне,
Ленин - в тебе и во мне!
В давний час, в суровой мгле,
На заре Советской власти,
Он сказал, что на Земле
Мы построим людям счастье.
Припев.
Мы за Партией идём,
Славя Родину делами,
И на всем пути большом
В каждом деле Ленин с нами.
Припев.
_______________________________
Day by day, with each year -
New generations dawn -
But no one ever shall
Forget the name of Lenin.
Chorus:
Lenin is always alive,
Lenin is always with you -
In sadness, hope, and happiness.
Lenin in your springtime,
In each happy day
Lenin lives in you and me!
From the hours of gloom
At the dawn of Soviet Power,
He said that on the Earth
We shall construct a society on happiness.
Chorus.
We go forward for the Party
As it glorifies our Motherland.
And with all great things
In each case, Lenin is with us.
Chorus.
В случае с Лениным произошло следующее:
Он прибыл из Швейцарии, как оппозиция царской власти. А потом, когда переворот свершился, его объявили великим героем-революционером — подменили истинные ценности на фальшивые и закрепили это мавзолеем. К сожалению убрать Ленина оттуда пока нельзя (политика), но очень многие в россии понимают, что это нужно сделать.
...Методы при смене власти ничем не отличаются от нынешних.