Thread: Lenin: Good or bad?

Yes Crocodile - I know all of this.
But Russian/USSR propaganda about so called "victory" still looks ridiculous if you look at Russia and Germany/Japan/Italy today.
I heard story/anecdote somewhere about a tourist from USSR who visited West Germany.
And when he went into supermarket he fainted with words "Но мы же победили!"

Originally Posted by nulle

Yes Crocodile - I know all of this.
But Russian/USSR propaganda about so called "victory" still looks ridiculous if you look at Russia and Germany/Japan/Italy today.
I heard story/anecdote somewhere about a tourist from USSR who visited West Germany.
And when he went into supermarket he fainted with words "Но мы же победили!"

Yeah, that's an old joke (dated early 80s) strongly associated with the similar "sausage" joke. In both cases, I don't think the stories are real, since those people who had the permission to go abroad to visit the West Germany lived pretty well in USSR as well. And sometimes a way better than an average person in West Germany, so they couldn't really faint. An ordinary people weren't allowed out of the "socialist camp". The exception being those whose work was closely associated with traveling, like ballet/circus/musicians, sailors, etc. But those were under rather strict control and also were unable to visit a supermarket.

Those jokes were made up and they reflect the sad truth that the quality of life in the USSR was typically worse than in the European/US/Japan capitalist countries. However, the capitalism does not necessarily means a high quality of life for everybody. Another truth some of the late-80 political activists didn't know. The sad consequences followed.

As for the victory over the Nazi Germany, I don't think it's fair to bring it with respect to the quality-of-life context. Had the USSR lost to the Nazi Germany, I don't think the quality of life in the territories which made up the USSR would change for better. I think rather opposite is true. It is well-known, that some of the territories in Ukraine had greeted Nazis with smile and flowers as they remembered the time Ukraine was under Keizer Germany occupation after the 1917 and the changes that followed after Germans left. But, the Nazis showed their goals were different and, as a result, they got partisans stabbing their backs.

Had the USSR lost to the Nazi Germany, I don't think the quality of life in the territories which made up the USSR would change for better.

Well - USSR and Nazi Germany themselves started this war as allies (Molotov-Ribbentrop pact).

Originally Posted by nulle

Well - USSR and Nazi Germany themselves started this war as allies (Molotov-Ribbentrop pact).

And what difference does it make in our discussion? Alright, so in a wider sense both were the aggressors. The Nazi Germany started the war having the goals of expansion as much as the USSR. By the end of the war the Nazi Germany shrunk and the USSR expanded. As an aggressor, the USSR achieved more of its goals than the Nazi Germany. But whenever the victory over the Nazi Germany is praised as a achievement of the USSR, the Nazi Germany was clearly an aggressor and the USSR was a defender, thus making the part of the WWII between the summer of 1941 to the spring of the 1945 a patriotic war for the USSR. Of course, later the same year 1945 the USSR became aggressor assaulting Japan, but that's another story, which is usually not stated as one of the greatest achievements of the USSR. Even though it was a great victory. The entire Japanses army which was the major force on the continent had been destroyed in four weeks.