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Thread: Latvia

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    Latvia

    Let me shortly explain what’s going on at the land by the sea and practise in my horrible English.


    Blazon of Liffland province

    Russians like many other nations lived in Livonia, Lettgallia and Cureland many ages ago. I did not make any mistakes here because Latvia was founded only in 1918 and right before that this territory was named as “Лифляндская губерния” (Liffland province) and was a part of Russian Empire. The national self-consciousness movement was initiated by group of students from Liffland province who was learning at St. Petersburg. They were the most educated part of future Latvian society who was creating the country of Latvia. Latvia incorporated Cureland and the biggest part of Livonia (Northern part of Livonia gets into Estonia). I asked many persons but the question still have no answer “When was officially established the Latvian writing”. My estimation is about 1924 because I saw banking documents dated 1922 in Latvian but this one is written with German ABC.


    Blazon of Latvia

    After the war and civil war Latvia becomes democratic parliament republic and in 1920 the first elections in Saeima (Latvian parliament) were held. It was continuing as far as 1934. The Great Depression brought an economic to crisis and Prime Minister of Latvia Karlis Ulmanis brakes an action of constitution and dismisses Saeima. In 1936 he established a position of president and takes it. He seized absolute power and kept it by special military forces (aizsargi) but it was a salvation for the sinking economy.


    Karlis Ulmanis

    The most disputable period of Latvian history is 1939-1940 years. The German military machine was started up and Soviet government propose to sign a document “Pact of defence and mutual assistance” to avoid German aggression. This pact made possible a station of Soviet Army in Latvia, and it was signed 5 Oct 1939. 16 Jun 1940 Soviet Foreign Minister Molotov presented an ultimatum. The USSR prosecuted Latvia in transgressing the pact. In accordance with the ultimatum, Latvia and Estonia did not abolish military union against USSR and made opposite of that (involved Lithuania, and is trying to involve Finland). 17 Jun 1940 Soviet Army crossed the Latvian border and got to the stations without any resistance. 21 Jul 1940 Latvia was annexed to the USSR and becomes LPSR (Latvijas Padomju Socialistiska Republika).


    Blazon of LPSR

    In 1941 German Army invaded in Baltic lands. Baltic Republic and part of Belarus becomes Ostland. This war had divided Latvian nation. Many of people were offended by Soviet orders especially who lost his property. First of all, Ostland authorities needed in police forces to keep orders and fight with guerrillas. First squads absolutely consisted of volunteers. The most cruelty was applied by squad of Viktors Arajs. The squad of Viktors Arajs killed at the time of the war about 50 thousands of people (many of them was Jews). Also interesting information you can found here.
    In 1943 Germans have a deficit of an infantry in the East front, and they start to recruit a Latvian SS division. Up to the end of war, two divisions were recruited (N15 and N19) but there was a few of volunteers. SS division N15 also included police squads. At the end of war the part of Latvian SS divisions gave up to Latvian Red Army infantry corps N130. You can read about details here.



    In the Soviet times, LPSR was a part of the USSR. The advantage of LPSR is position by the Baltic Sea. This one is not frozen in the winter. That’s the reason because there are two big harbours in the west side (Liepaja and Ventspils). Ventspils harbour has an oil terminal and oil pipeline from Russia (now it’s absolutely dry). Liepaja (Либава) harbour was the famous military harbour (now it’s the cargo harbour).

    Эскадра 29 сентября (1904 года) приближалась к Либаве. Я смотрел вперед, туда, где обозначились песчаные берега. За ними, немного отступив от моря, густо раскинулся лес, покачиваясь от ветра, словно тяжко взбираясь на возвышение. По мере нашего приближения выплывали из туманной мглы здания порта-Александра III, фабричные трубы, огромный элеватор. Миновав плавучий маяк, эскадра зашла за каменный волнолом и бросила якорь в довольно просторном аванпорте. Ушедшие вперед миноносцы стояли уже здесь.
    Военный порт еще не был окончательно оборудован. Он расширялся и достраивался. Со временем он должен будет заменить собою Кронштадт и стать первым портом на Балтийском море и главной базой нашего флота. А пока большое оживление было лишь в Коммерческой гавани. Не замерзая зимою, она работала круглый год. Вот почему со всех концов России катились вагоны в Либаву, подвозя сюда экспортные товары: хлеб, масло, жмыхи. А отсюда сотни пароходов под флагами разных наций, наполнив грузом трюмы, расходились по иностранным портам.
    Алексей Силыч Новиков-Прибой. „Цусима”.


    Bulk cargo harbour in Liepaja

    Not only oil pipeline is in Latvia. The greatest in the USSR gas storage was (and is) placed nearby the town Inchukalns. It’s impossible to extract gas whole year. The gas from Russia goes through the gas pipeline and pumps into an area between ground layers. Later, that gas pumps out and can be used.
    LPSR was going to be industrial state. Many of high educated specialists and high skill workers were invited by the Soviet government to LPRS, and in 1990 the part of other nations was close to 50%. (The part of Russians was about 12% in 1930s. I don’t have information about other nations.) The official language was Russian; each street label has Latvian and Russian names. There were two kinds of schools with Latvian and Russian languages, University groups, and etc, but the main language was Russian.

    Perestroyka times were like the winds of change. At the end of the 80s economic was finally ruined, and the idea of new live without Russia was raised. The most interesting fact is the many of communist chiefs become most active capitalists and anticommunists. The head of LPSR Anatolijs Gorbunovs and ex-secretary of ideology of the committee of communist party becomes Prime Minister of Latvia; the head of comsomol organisation Valerij Kargin becomes owner of the biggest Latvia bank (Parex banka). All of that was made possible by Russian “democrats” who tussled, at this same time, with other “democrats”. Eltsin was one of them. It was not a secret about his visit to Riga and his negotiation with Gorbunovs. The flash of nationalism in republics was used by Russian leaders to seize the power. Of course, the support of republics was honoured by the independence.
    Many of Latvian people dreams about independence because it was a chance to change live without any advices from “communists”; it’s a dream up to now. The nationalism is only tool to get influence over the people and rob national money.

    Russian-language people live principally in big cities like Riga, Daugavpils, Liepaja and Ventspils. It was hard to grow nationalism there because Latvians, Russians, Jews, Belarus, Polishes, Germans and others live together as the neighbours. The main power of nationalism was and is communist losers, specialist and scientist losers, and later inheritors of ethnic Latvians from other countries who escaped from the communist rules in 1940-1945. In other words, they were and are the persons who had no idea about Latvia. The last Supreme Soviet of LPSR election in 1989 was defiantly ignored by many of Russians but results of election were not called off. After the referendum of independence (about 78% said “yes” for independence), and Supreme Soviet made decisions:
    1. Latvia was occupied by the USSR in 1940.
    2. Latvia’s citizens are only citizens of “old” Latvia (before 17 July 1940).
    3. The official language in Latvia is only Latvian language.
    … and etc.
    This is the way how it is happened. About third of Latvian people lost citizenship at all in one day. The opposite opinion says they never had this one. I personally don’t understand this opinion.



    Many of those ombudsmen have work only because of non-citizens are exist. The Ministry of Integration is an example. Some ombudsmen wanted to gain on Latvian language but new generation of ethnic Latvians don’t speak (or speak poor) Russian language. In other hand, Russian language is still popular and many of young specialists who don’t speak Russian can’t found a job in Riga and Daugavpils. It forces politicians to accelerate an integration (actually, assimilation) politics. I think and hope it will never happen. Actually, it’s not specific only for Latvians. Some “Russian” parties use this situation but in other side. If non-citizenship annulled they would lost places in Saeima.

    Russian schools are under “reformation” now. I sure you have seen Eurovision-2003 in Riga but only few of you know about demonstrations at that time. So called “Reform 2004” forces the Russian high schools to teach 60% of subjects in Latvian language, except Latvian history, and etc. First of all, it’s not a first (and not a second one) unfriendly step of Latvian Saeima; secondly, schools are not ready for that (books, teachers, methods, and etc.). This reform deteriorates quality of school education and rise enmity of Russian-speakers, but it’s not a reason for village “ministers”. The most disgusting is some officials and politicians threaten to students, principals and teachers of Russian schools. However, Latvian-speaking people and Russian-speaking people are still friendly to each other.









    Some Russian politicians pretend to protect Russians in Latvia. It curiously coincides to the Russian election. It looks so funny in Latvia because they are not accurate with facts and have information just for populism. Trust me; you would not want to listen about “Russian help” from Latvian Russians.

    The positive moment is we have the economic rules now. This one forces to search stability and consolidation with other nations but the times of nationalists is not finished right now.
    Я танцую пьяный на столе нума нума е нума нума нума е
    Снова счастье улыбнулось мне нума нума е нума нума нума е

  2. #2
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    Thanks, that was quite interesting.
    And your English is pretty good, by the way.
    Море удачи и дачу у моря

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    According to my sources, the Latvian language has existed in a written form since the 16th century. That language has been in active use since well before that time, and, unlike the languages like Czech or Norwegian, has never been forgotten and then artificially re-created. I think Latvia owes a credit for that to the Russians, who, despite all their despotry and tyranny, have preserved the language. It may be argued that if it had not been for the Russian influence, the Latvians would have been completely germanized as indeed happened with their cousins in East Prussia. It is quite sad that the current narrow-minded rulers of the country neglect the history of their land.
    Jonesboro, Arkansas. Mean, stupid, violent fat people, no jobs, nothing to do, hotter than a dog with 2 d--cks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
    According to my sources, the Latvian language has existed in a written form since the 16th century. That language has been in active use since well before that time, and, unlike the languages like Czech or Norwegian, has never been forgotten and then artificially re-created. I think Latvia owes a credit for that to the Russians, who, despite all their despotry and tyranny, have preserved the language. It may be argued that if it had not been for the Russian influence, the Latvians would have been completely germanized as indeed happened with their cousins in East Prussia. It is quite sad that the current narrow-minded rulers of the country neglect the history of their land.
    Bad manners is completely right. As I remember, there was even a "Prussian" language in existance sometimes. It had nothing in common in German, and closely related to Latvian and Lithuanian. But Prussia was annexed by Germany... and now this language is known only for linguists.

    Undoubtly, this should be the fate of Latvian and Lithuanian languages (as well as nations...), if they were "annexed" by Germany instead of Russian Empire.
    Кр. -- сестр. тал.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
    According to my sources, the Latvian language has existed in a written form since the 16th century. That language has been in active use since well before that time, and, unlike the languages like Czech or Norwegian, has never been forgotten and then artificially re-created.
    It's not so easy.
    First Latvian book I know is a Bible translated by Aluksne minister Ernst Gluck (it seems 1680s). This one was needed for Germans to disseminate Lutheran religion. Actually, it was not a Latvian language (Latvia is a term of 20th century). Even in the days of our lives there are two strong dialects high Latvian (official Latvian) and low Latvian (Latgalian). The second one sounds like Ukrainian language for Russians; close to Russian language but not so much. The Bible Latvian language was only a language of one national group in one of the Baltic region (nearby Aluksne), and this one had parts of Live, Kurshi, Zemgali, Vendi, Esti, Lithuanian, and etc languages. Don’t forget the parts of nowadays Latvia’s territory belonged to other countries.


    Take a look at the label on the wall. The Latvian text is written by German’s ABC. Definitely, this house was built much later than 18th century.

    Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
    I think Latvia owes a credit for that to the Russians, who, despite all their despotry and tyranny, have preserved the language. It may be argued that if it had not been for the Russian influence, the Latvians would have been completely germanized as indeed happened with their cousins in East Prussia. It is quite sad that the current narrow-minded rulers of the country neglect the history of their land.
    Mostly you are right, but you don’t talk in the terms of the low. It was the main mistake of the USSR in 1990. The USSR actually provides a keeping of languages and cultures; in other hand, Russian language naturally displaced the national languages.
    The first try of “russification” was attempted by Aleksander I in 1820. You can read details here.
    Я танцую пьяный на столе нума нума е нума нума нума е
    Снова счастье улыбнулось мне нума нума е нума нума нума е

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    latvia isnt even a slavic country...bah.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BETEP
    Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
    According to my sources, the Latvian language has existed in a written form since the 16th century. That language has been in active use since well before that time, and, unlike the languages like Czech or Norwegian, has never been forgotten and then artificially re-created.
    It's not so easy.
    First Latvian book I know is a Bible translated by Aluksne minister Ernst Gluck (it seems 1680s).
    http://www.lituanus.org/1973/73_3_02.htm

    "an older book has been discovered in the library of the University of Uppsala, the "Katolu katechisms" (Catholic Catechism), dated 1585. Although some scholars, for example J. Straubergs, wrote that even some older books published in Latvian probably exist, there is scant evidence to support this."

    "detailed information in the diary of the Dome Dean of Luebeck Brandt regarding a Latvian book printed as early as 1525. In this diary, written in Latin, it is mentioned that in 1525 a Lutheran Church Book "Missale" was published with three parallel texts — in ordinary Livonian, in Latvian, and in Estonian."

    "Some evidence can also be found in the literature that a Lutheran handbook was printed in 1530. It is possible that, after the mishap with the 1525 book, the same text may have been printed a second time in 1530. In the book Cosmography by Sebastian Muenster, Basel, the text of the Lard's Prayer was printed in Latvian. This is the oldest extant printed text in Latvian."

    Actually, it was not a Latvian language (Latvia is a term of 20th century).
    That is natural given the time. If you take any book written in Russian in 1530, it will not be quite the kind of Russian you here these days.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angel_of_Death-NZ
    latvia isnt even a slavic country...bah.
    That’s true if you meant ethnic Germans, Letts, Livs, Ests, Lithuanians, Zemigals, and etc. Ethnic Vendi are Slavic, and as well as third of Latvian people are Russians, Ukrainians, Belarus, Polishes, and etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
    "an older book has been discovered in the library of the University of Uppsala, the "Katolu katechisms" (Catholic Catechism), dated 1585. Although some scholars, for example J. Straubergs, wrote that even some older books published in Latvian probably exist, there is scant evidence to support this."

    "detailed information in the diary of the Dome Dean of Luebeck Brandt regarding a Latvian book printed as early as 1525. In this diary, written in Latin, it is mentioned that in 1525 a Lutheran Church Book "Missale" was published with three parallel texts — in ordinary Livonian, in Latvian, and in Estonian."

    "Some evidence can also be found in the literature that a Lutheran handbook was printed in 1530. It is possible that, after the mishap with the 1525 book, the same text may have been printed a second time in 1530. In the book Cosmography by Sebastian Muenster, Basel, the text of the Lard's Prayer was printed in Latvian. This is the oldest extant printed text in Latvian."
    First of all, don't find absolutely right numbers in the ancient history. For example, there is no single opinion about current language. Some linguists think the Latgalian is a dialect; the rest of them thing this one is other language.

    I suppose the book exists but it does not change the concept. Those books were written by Germans to dissipate religion. In short; the first period of Baltic conquest (12-16 century) was described in “Henrich’s chronicles”. It was a period of soft religion dissipation. Next period was a period of hard German oppression. For example, no one may stay in Riga at night except Germans. The place of foreign merchants was located nearby Riga and called as “Московкий форштат” (now it’s „Maskavas iela”).

    You can picture those books for yourself. Just picture the Bible written in Ukrainian by translit. You can compare that with a history of Slavic writing (set your eyes on not even Russian). The birthday of Slavic writing is the birthday of Slavic ABC.

    There was no even Latvians at 16th century. Actually, our country has two names because Germans still call Latvia as Lettland. The main achievement of Jaunlatviesi (Young Latvians; I have wrote about them) is the creation of Latvia in 1920s as is up to now. It was consolidation of many nations in territory with the borders which didn’t exist before. That’s the reason because the mention of Latvians in 1530 is incorrect (but he can told only about Letts).

    Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
    That is natural given the time. If you take any book written in Russian in 1530, it will not be quite the kind of Russian you here these days.
    Of course, but it’s written by Cyrillic.
    Я танцую пьяный на столе нума нума е нума нума нума е
    Снова счастье улыбнулось мне нума нума е нума нума нума е

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    Quote Originally Posted by BETEP
    I suppose the book exists but it does not change the concept. Those books were written by Germans to dissipate religion.
    I actually think that your argument is irrelevant. They were written in what everybody, including the Latvians of that time, considered Latvian back then. Who wrote it and for what purpose does not undermine the fact that Latvian did exist as a written language back then, and obviously had existed as a separate spoken language long before (whose existence was well-known in Europe in addition to that).

    There was no even Latvians at 16th century. Actually, our country has two names because Germans still call Latvia as Lettland. The main achievement of Jaunlatviesi (Young Latvians; I have wrote about them) is the creation of Latvia in 1920s as is up to now. It was consolidation of many nations in territory with the borders which didn’t exist before. That’s the reason because the mention of Latvians in 1530 is incorrect (but he can told only about Letts).
    This applies to practically any nation. The Russian Empire emerged from Russia, which emerged from Muscovy (simplifying things very seriously here). The language that was spoken in the Grand Principality of Muscovy was known as Russian, even though it is not the same language that is spoken in Russia now, and not quite the same language that was spoken in the other countries that are now part of Russia. Same as in Latvia, only bigger in scale. I can say the same about Germany, the United Kingdom, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
    That is natural given the time. If you take any book written in Russian in 1530, it will not be quite the kind of Russian you here these days.
    Of course, but it’s written by Cyrillic.
    It could be written in глаголица at that time, which bears no resemblance to кириллица. Defining a language in terms of its alphabet is quite stupid, frankly, you might end up saying that German texts written with runes or even Gothic letters are not related to modern German.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
    I actually think that your argument is irrelevant. They were written in what everybody, including the Latvians of that time, considered Latvian back then. Who wrote it and for what purpose does not undermine the fact that Latvian did exist as a written language back then, and obviously had existed as a separate spoken language long before (whose existence was well-known in Europe in addition to that).
    First of all, change Latvians to Letts because it’s not the same. Of course Lett’s language exist long time ago.

    Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
    This applies to practically any nation. The Russian Empire emerged from Russia, which emerged from Muscovy (simplifying things very seriously here). The language that was spoken in the Grand Principality of Muscovy was known as Russian, even though it is not the same language that is spoken in Russia now, and not quite the same language that was spoken in the other countries that are now part of Russia. Same as in Latvia, only bigger in scale.
    In that case you didn’t get the concept because it was opposite of that. Many of Slavic countries and principalities have languages based on one historical root. Ancient Latvian tribes have different languages and even were classified as languages from different language groups. It’s hard to believe but I don’t understand Lithanians (Baltic group) and Estonians (Fino-Ugric group). In despite of that Latvian language got some rules and words from Estonian, Lithuanian, Livian, Slavic, Prussian, German, Sweden, and etc. If you ride an hour by a car from Riga to the South you will reach a place where people don’t speak Latvian at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
    I can say the same about Germany, the United Kingdom, etc.
    German is the good example. As I know, official German language is not a natural one. Latvian language is a natural one but it’s also compiled from many languages.

    Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
    It could be written in глаголица at that time, which bears no resemblance to кириллица.
    Yes. But the official date of Slavic writing is the date of Slavic alphabet.

    Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
    Defining a language in terms of its alphabet is quite stupid, frankly, you might end up saying that German texts written with runes or even Gothic letters are not related to modern German.
    German languages have more complex history. If you are saying about Standard German the date is about 19th century.

    To avoid misunderstanding I can rephrase my words. I don’t know who and when develop Latvian alphabet.
    Я танцую пьяный на столе нума нума е нума нума нума е
    Снова счастье улыбнулось мне нума нума е нума нума нума е

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    Quote Originally Posted by BETEP
    Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
    This applies to practically any nation. The Russian Empire emerged from Russia, which emerged from Muscovy (simplifying things very seriously here). The language that was spoken in the Grand Principality of Muscovy was known as Russian, even though it is not the same language that is spoken in Russia now, and not quite the same language that was spoken in the other countries that are now part of Russia. Same as in Latvia, only bigger in scale.
    In that case you didn’t get the concept because it was opposite of that.
    I was afraid that I would run into a communication problem with you again. Poor me.

    Many of Slavic countries and principalities have languages based on one historical root. Ancient Latvian tribes have different languages and even were classified as languages from different language groups. It’s hard to believe but I don’t understand Lithanians (Baltic group) and Estonians (Fino-Ugric group). In despite of that Latvian language got some rules and words from Estonian, Lithuanian, Livian, Slavic, Prussian, German, Sweden, and etc. If you ride an hour by a car from Riga to the South you will reach a place where people don’t speak Latvian at all.
    And how is that different from what I wrote? Ancient "Russian" tribes (Russian in the sense that they occupied the territory of the current Russia) had different languages that were even classified as languages from different language groups. This does not mean anything in particular. What does mean something is that the Latvians (and the Russians, the Germans, etc) have one main language that can be traced back to a language of a tribe that was somehow related with the current Latvian (Russian, German, etc) territory. This is what I told last time and you really ought to avoid saying "you didn't get the concept" given your record of being able to get this or that.

    German is the good example. As I know, official German language is not a natural one.
    You know incorrectly.

    Yes. But the official date of Slavic writing is the date of Slavic alphabet.
    So what? Besides, I would not be entirely surprised if it turned out that the first Slavic writing was done in some other alphabet, say Greek.

    German languages have more complex history. If you are saying about Standard German the date is about 19th century.
    The date of what?
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    First of all, is that you want to discuss?

    Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
    And how is that different from what I wrote? Ancient "Russian" tribes (Russian in the sense that they occupied the territory of the current Russia) had different languages that were even classified as languages from different language groups.
    That’s it! We did talk about languages of nations who were occupied.

    Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
    You know incorrectly.
    Standard German

    In this section we give a short survey of what has contributed to the development of a standard German language, irrespective of whether this has been a deliberate effort of language planning or just a coincidence of circumstances that favoured a common language.


    A Short History Of The German Language

    Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
    So what?
    Because I asked "When was officially established the Latvian writing?", and later I rephrased to "I don’t know who and when develop Latvian alphabet". We could apply any criteria but I don’t know the answer. Do you?
    Я танцую пьяный на столе нума нума е нума нума нума е
    Снова счастье улыбнулось мне нума нума е нума нума нума е

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    Quote Originally Posted by BETEP
    First of all, is that you want to discuss?
    I don't understand this question.

    Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
    And how is that different from what I wrote? Ancient "Russian" tribes (Russian in the sense that they occupied the territory of the current Russia) had different languages that were even classified as languages from different language groups.
    That’s it! We did talk about languages of nations who were occupied.
    So perhaps we should concentrate on what has been called "the Latvian Language" for centuries -- I grant you that it may have changed and that some people in Latvia speak some other dialect -- but that is largely irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
    You know incorrectly.
    Standard German

    In this section we give a short survey of what has contributed to the development of a standard German language, irrespective of whether this has been a deliberate effort of language planning or just a coincidence of circumstances that favoured a common language.


    A Short History Of The German Language
    Can you find any indication in that document that "official German language is not a natural one"?

    Because I asked "When was officially established the Latvian writing?", and later I rephrased to "I don’t know who and when develop Latvian alphabet". We could apply any criteria but I don’t know the answer. Do you?
    What do you mean by "officially established"?
    Jonesboro, Arkansas. Mean, stupid, violent fat people, no jobs, nothing to do, hotter than a dog with 2 d--cks.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
    I don't understand this question.
    You have got everything except writing, isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
    So perhaps we should concentrate on what has been called "the Latvian Language" for centuries -- I grant you that it may have changed and that some people in Latvia speak some other dialect -- but that is largely irrelevant.
    Did you mean century?
    The most similar language is the language of Letts but also this one has features of other languages. It's like a river with many creeks.

    Let's make a trip to the ancient history. I tried to explain only basic steam of history.

    Baltic land always was a land of the war. The ancient tribes were fighting with each other up to the times of Germans. Since times of Germans were settled in Baltic, local wars were between German-Tribes and tribes who don't admit German religion and rules, especially with Lithuanians who were and are the strongest resident nation in the Baltic.
    Heathen tribes didn't want to admit religion. Germans gave to them castles and protection in exchange for christening but every time they washed it in a river. Since times of German oppression, tribes were closed in themselves. It gave them a chance to keep their languages which were taking some rules and words from German and other languages of neighbors.

    Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
    Can you find any indication in that document that "official German language is not a natural one"?
    Another important step towards the standardisation of the language was the creation of a generally binding orthography by the kingdom of Bavaria in 1879; the kingdom of Prussia followed one year later when Konrad Duden (1829-1911) created his famous dictionary "according to the new Prussian and Bavarian rules" which has been continued and adapted to language changes until today. This dictionary was regarded as the de-facto standard (and sometimes even the de-jure standard) of German orthography. Since 1880, the orthography has been subjected to two reforms in the first and the last years of the 20th century: In 1901, there was a three-day administrative conference accepting and continuing Duden's innovations, most notably abandoning writing th in German words such as Thal or Rath. The reform in the 1990ies consisted of a long series of academic and bureaucratic debates whose results have remained controversial because they were not an attempt to codify changes already in use but to invent new changes to orthography.

    There are actions like "standardisation" and "invention" which are bound with non-natural changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
    What do you mean by "officially established"?
    For example, America was discovered in 1498; the day of Slavic writing is May 24.
    Я танцую пьяный на столе нума нума е нума нума нума е
    Снова счастье улыбнулось мне нума нума е нума нума нума е

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    Quote Originally Posted by BETEP
    Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
    I don't understand this question.
    You have got everything except writing, isn't it?
    I don't understand that either.

    Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
    So perhaps we should concentrate on what has been called "the Latvian Language" for centuries -- I grant you that it may have changed and that some people in Latvia speak some other dialect -- but that is largely irrelevant.
    Did you mean century?
    No, I meant what I wrote. I have cited enough sources so that any, even mentally retarded, person might see that the existence of the Latvian language was known many centuries ago.

    The most similar language is the language of Letts but also this one has features of other languages. It's like a river with many creeks.
    I have repeated many times that it is irrelevant. All human languages change over time.

    Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
    Can you find any indication in that document that "official German language is not a natural one"?
    Another important step towards the standardisation of the language was the creation of a generally binding orthography by the kingdom of Bavaria in 1879; the kingdom of Prussia followed one year later when Konrad Duden (1829-1911) created his famous dictionary "according to the new Prussian and Bavarian rules" which has been continued and adapted to language changes until today. This dictionary was regarded as the de-facto standard (and sometimes even the de-jure standard) of German orthography. Since 1880, the orthography has been subjected to two reforms in the first and the last years of the 20th century: In 1901, there was a three-day administrative conference accepting and continuing Duden's innovations, most notably abandoning writing th in German words such as Thal or Rath. The reform in the 1990ies consisted of a long series of academic and bureaucratic debates whose results have remained controversial because they were not an attempt to codify changes already in use but to invent new changes to orthography.

    [quote:2df7ei16]There are actions like "standardisation" and "invention" which are bound with non-natural changes.
    [/quote:2df7ei16]
    Incorrect. These things are natural to any language. They do not change the language in any way; quite the opposite, they change the orthography so that it follow the language. Orthography, itself, is not natural, and is rigid, and it is up to those who use the language to decide on the most natural way to handle the orthography.

    Quote Originally Posted by bad manners
    What do you mean by "officially established"?
    For example, America was discovered in 1498; the day of Slavic writing is May 24.
    The first is not true, and the second is but a holiday, which might as well be celebrated on any other day. Slavic writing had existed long before Cyrillic.
    Jonesboro, Arkansas. Mean, stupid, violent fat people, no jobs, nothing to do, hotter than a dog with 2 d--cks.

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