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    Quote Originally Posted by E-learner View Post
    "Opinion"? "They just think"?
    Russia is eating Ukraine up bit by bit and they salute their idol for that.
    Actually there are many active voices condemning the "idol" haven't had drastic defend Donbass people. I believe most of them wish to be well to Ukraine and respect Ukrainians' freedom but they don't want violated freedom of Donbass.
    As I understand it, now we proceed from 'moskals' from Russia to 'moskals' from Ukraine.

    Inside Ukraine, there is a tendency to call 'moskals' only people in high positions. For example, Simonenko, the leader of "communist" party (couldn't fight the urge to use quotation marks because, in fact, it's let's-join-the-Russian-Empier party).

    As an example from another extreme -- those ordinary people with guns who now cooperate with the occupants do not get called 'moskals'. For the time being, at least. Time will tell.
    There is also a tendency to punish and "lustrate" non-consented quite non-democraticly, isn't there?
    The point was about the danger to lives and helth of real people, those "banderas" much more dangerous for opposers in Ukraine than in Russian borders.

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    Почтенный гражданин 14Russian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rimz View Post
    Actually there are many active voices condemning the "idol" haven't had drastic defend Donbass people. I believe most of them wish to be well to Ukraine and respect Ukrainians' freedom but they don't want violated freedom of Donbass.

    There is also a tendency to punish and "lustrate" non-consented quite non-democraticly, isn't there?
    The point was about the danger to lives and helth of real people, those "banderas" much more dangerous for opposers in Ukraine than in Russian borders.
    'don't want violated freedom of Donbass.'
    What 'freedom of Donbass?' Are you saying that the Novorossiya territory is a 'democracy?'

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    Quote Originally Posted by 14Russian View Post
    'don't want violated freedom of Donbass.'
    What 'freedom of Donbass?' Are you saying that the Novorossiya territory is a 'democracy?'
    'freedom of Donbass' is not the same as ''freedom in Donbass'' to infer your last phrase. So I meant freedom not to be invided by Ukraine or anyone else.
    Freedom is the right for people themselves to choose their destiny without any compulsions from outside. Novorossiya is to form, the DNR and LNR held referendums of independence and as you know they have been fighting and have many hardships so far.

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    Почтенный гражданин UhOhXplode's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 14Russian View Post
    'don't want violated freedom of Donbass.'
    What 'freedom of Donbass?' Are you saying that the Novorossiya territory is a 'democracy?'
    Why does it have to be a democracy? Not everyone wants to live in a democracy. Don't other countries have the right to self-determination?
    Novorossiya is not a territory - it's a Republic. Imo, the Peoples Republic of Donetsk and the Peoples Republic of Lugansk both have the same right to self-determination that the Ukraine has. So if the Ukraine expects to have the right to self-determination then it must also give that right to those Republics.
    The war against self-determination needs to end. It should have ended when the Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic was formed.
    Imo, the will of the people is way more important than terretorial integrity. But that's just me.
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    Лучше смерть, чем бесчестие! Тем временем: Вечно молодой, Вечно пьяный. - Смысловые Галлюцинации, Чартова дюжина 2015!
    Пожалуйста, исправьте мои ошибки. Спасибо.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by UhOhXplode View Post
    Why does it have to be a democracy? Not everyone wants to live in a democracy. Don't other countries have the right to self-determination?
    Novorossiya is not a territory - it's a Republic. Imo, the Peoples Republic of Donetsk and the Peoples Republic of Lugansk both have the same right to self-determination that the Ukraine has. So if the Ukraine expects to have the right to self-determination then it must also give that right to those Republics.
    The war against self-determination needs to end. It should have ended when the Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic was formed.
    Imo, the will of the people is way more important than terretorial integrity. But that's just me.
    You do realize though that the Democratic Party of the States doesn't define democracy? I even find it pretty funny, but I view the Republicans as way more democratic than the Democrats. =)) But maybe that's just me.

    How far can self-determination go? Can a single person self-determine themselves and live in a separate country? What if some people within a self-determining group don't want the determination the rest want? Can every nationality of the several dozens that Russia has self-determine themselves and get split off of Russia? What are the limits?

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    Почтенный гражданин 14Russian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UhOhXplode View Post
    Why does it have to be a democracy? Not everyone wants to live in a democracy. Don't other countries have the right to self-determination?
    Novorossiya is not a territory - it's a Republic. Imo, the Peoples Republic of Donetsk and the Peoples Republic of Lugansk both have the same right to self-determination that the Ukraine has. So if the Ukraine expects to have the right to self-determination then it must also give that right to those Republics.
    The war against self-determination needs to end. It should have ended when the Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic was formed.
    Imo, the will of the people is way more important than terretorial integrity. But that's just me.
    Sigh. Don't call it a democracy, then. Do you think the citizens are free there? I guess you didn't notice I put 'democracy' in quotes?

    So, self-determination includes unilateral breaking away based on having guns pointed at your head? I know that a large percentage didn't want to join the 'new regime' in the rest of Ukraine (why do you use 'the Ukraine?). Many are pensioners, though. Many are indoctrinated via the old empire and system. But, I've talked to some people in that part (Donbass) and they are not big fans. Not everyone supports the system there so where does their 'determination' fit in?

    I really don't care for either 'government/regime' especially if you consider 'Novorossiya' is governed by people with guns and that's their government in a nutshell. If the rest of Ukraine can organize and create some new parties (which they will need to if they want to end the status quo of oligarchs and politician collaboration), then they could change it. But, right now, I believe most are worried about jobs, the economy and what is next. But, I haven't read anything about Novorossiya that illustrates the ordinary citizen has 'freedom' unless they comply and abide by the desired system there.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric C. View Post
    You do realize though that the Democratic Party of the States doesn't define democracy? I even find it pretty funny, but I view the Republicans as way more democratic than the Democrats. =)) But maybe that's just me.
    Why do you view that?
    How far can self-determination go? Can a single person self-determine themselves and live in a separate country? What if some people within a self-determining group don't want the determination the rest want? Can every nationality of the several dozens that Russia has self-determine themselves and get split off of Russia? What are the limits?
    Doesn't developed American democracy have answers on these questions? Hasn't had it expirience like Kosovo?
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    Quote Originally Posted by 14Russian View Post
    So, self-determination includes unilateral breaking away based on having guns pointed at your head? I know that a large percentage didn't want to join the 'new regime' in the rest of Ukraine (why do you use 'the Ukraine?). Many are pensioners, though. Many are indoctrinated via the old empire and system. But, I've talked to some people in that part (Donbass) and they are not big fans. Not everyone supports the system there so where does their 'determination' fit in?
    Right now people there are just afraid. They are afraid to die: they are afraid to be killed, they are afraid to starve, they are afraid to freeze to death.
    And since it's Kiev that shells them, cuts their pensions, cuts transportation with the rest of Ukraine, cuts electricity, destroys gas and water pipes everyday it is no wonder that people there think that Kiev is the enemy.
    BTW Russia delivers 11th humanitarian aid convoy to Donbass, as we speak. So don't be surprised that people there don't see Russia as a monster, despite that Kiev tries to portray it like that.
    At the same time some people understand that Novorossia has very little ground to survive right now, politically and economically, so they ask: what's next?

    One thing is clear - everybody in Ukraine currently lives worse then before, when Yanukovich was the president. Is this the price people want to pay for the Maidan? I don't know, time will tell. But I think some people in Ukraine and in Ukrainian government got way carried away with wild ideas.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric C. View Post
    You do realize though that the Democratic Party of the States doesn't define democracy? I even find it pretty funny, but I view the Republicans as way more democratic than the Democrats. =)) But maybe that's just me.

    How far can self-determination go? Can a single person self-determine themselves and live in a separate country? What if some people within a self-determining group don't want the determination the rest want? Can every nationality of the several dozens that Russia has self-determine themselves and get split off of Russia? What are the limits?
    Yeah. The first democracy was in Ancient Athens, Greece, and that was "majority rule". Btw, my parents are Republicans and they say the same thing - That Republicans are more democratic. But democracy changed up a lot in history and every "democracy" is different. For example, American democracy isn't the same as British democracy.

    Anyway, I don't know that much about the limits of self-determination. But I do know that territorial integrity only exists where there's a government. So when a country fails (like Ukraine did) then that integrity is gone and the people have to decide their own futures. Since only the western Ukrainians accepted the new government in Kiev then the eastern Ukrainians had to create their own government.
    The eastern Ukrainians were happy to have a small part of Ukraine to live in but western Ukraine got greedy and that led to war.

    Quote Originally Posted by 14Russian View Post
    Sigh. Don't call it a democracy, then. Do you think the citizens are free there? I guess you didn't notice I put 'democracy' in quotes?

    So, self-determination includes unilateral breaking away based on having guns pointed at your head? I know that a large percentage didn't want to join the 'new regime' in the rest of Ukraine (why do you use 'the Ukraine?). Many are pensioners, though. Many are indoctrinated via the old empire and system. But, I've talked to some people in that part (Donbass) and they are not big fans. Not everyone supports the system there so where does their 'determination' fit in?

    I really don't care for either 'government/regime' especially if you consider 'Novorossiya' is governed by people with guns and that's their government in a nutshell. If the rest of Ukraine can organize and create some new parties (which they will need to if they want to end the status quo of oligarchs and politician collaboration), then they could change it. But, right now, I believe most are worried about jobs, the economy and what is next. But, I haven't read anything about Novorossiya that illustrates the ordinary citizen has 'freedom' unless they comply and abide by the desired system there.
    My bad. I didn't notice how you setup the word 'democracy'.
    I don't know how free the people in Donbas are but I don't believe they were forced (by guns) to vote for independence in the referendums. I didn't see anybody pointing guns at anyone during the referendums.
    Btw, have you ever heard the phrase "You can't please everybody"? In any democratic vote there will always be people that lose. That's normal and it doesn't change "majority rule".
    Have you seen Kiev? They have guns too and they use them to protect the new government. Btw, the last woman that crashed through the barriers at the White House, in Washington DC, was shot and killed. And she wasn't even armed and there was a small kid in the car. And they knew that but they shot at the car anyway. Every government defends itself - even in the USA.
    Woman slain after car chase from White House to Capitol

    Well, I haven't read that any ordinary citizen, in western Ukraine, has "freedom" unless they comply and abide by the desired system there. But I have read about a lot of ethnic-Russians being tortured and killed in Kiev. And a Russia-friendly newspaper being destroyed. And Russia-friendly reporters being murdered. And a kid that was beaten up for wearing a St. George ribbon. And and and and...

    All I see are governments that should be living side-by-side in peace but they aren't. Why? Because Kiev wants ALL of Ukraine and wants to keep killing till it gets what it wants.
    I call that greed. And it's causing a ton of suffering that I'm very certain I can't even imagine... and wouldn't even want to.
    My most epic problem is setting up my new Nintendo 3DS XL but what do they have? Only what the Russian convoys send them. God bless Russia for helping those people and working for peace in Minsk.
    Btw, Merry Christmas.
    Лучше смерть, чем бесчестие! Тем временем: Вечно молодой, Вечно пьяный. - Смысловые Галлюцинации, Чартова дюжина 2015!
    Пожалуйста, исправьте мои ошибки. Спасибо.

  11. #51
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    несколько слов про гумманитарные конвои из России

    вот как о них говорят украинские СМИ
    Грузовики из восьмого российского "гумконвоя", который прибыл на Донбасс 30 ноября, везли снаряды.
    Об этом сообщил "ОстроВу" грузчик, получивший за это деньги.
    "Вчера (30 ноября) в Донецке мы разгружали три грузовика из гумконвоя. Они были заполнены снарядами. За работу каждому из ребят заплатили по 460 долларов", - сказал он изданию.
    Путинский конвой привез в Донецк снаряды - СМИ | Украинская правда

    а вот как говорит про тот же конвой ОБСЕ
    On 30 November 2014 at 09:42 hrs, the Observer Team witnessed the arrival of a Russian convoy at the gate of the Donetsk Border Crossing Point.
    ...
    The vehicles stopped at the customs control area. The tail gates of the cargo trucks were opened, and Russian border guards and customs officers briefly inspected the trucks. The Observer Team saw that Ukrainian officers were present on the site during the inspection process.
    Spot report by OSCE Observer Mission at the Russian Checkpoints Gukovo and Donetsk, 30 November 2014: Russian convoy of 43 vehicles crossed into Ukraine and returned back through the Donetsk Border Crossing Point | OSCE

    очень странно что работники украинских служб пропустили "снаряды", наверное ОБСЕ все врет, не могли работники ураинских служб проверять конвои, их же "не допускают"

    а вот какие "страшные ужасы" были в десятом конвое
    взгляните как ловко оружие замаскировано под детские подарки и открытки


    ну СНБО же не может врать, им можно верить
    Four Ukrainian military were killed, eight wounded in the last 24 hours, – informed NSDC spokesman Andriy Lysenko. He believes that this is due to arrival of new Russian "humanitarian aid convoy" – weapons, ammunition and terrorists have again arrived from Russia.
    This is Ukraine today – January 9: Russia hasn't provided any positive signs about the conflict in Ukraine | Українська правда - Блоги

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    Heavy fighting resumed at the whole front.
    It happens almost every time after a Russian "humanitarian convoy" arrives.

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    Quote Originally Posted by E-learner View Post
    Heavy fighting resumed at the whole front.
    It happens almost every time after a Russian "humanitarian convoy" arrives.
    Ну а я о чем.
    СНБО же не может врать, им стоит верить, раз они говорят что гуманитарные конвои возят оружие, то так и есть.
    А ОБСЕ и Красный Крест все врут конечно, они явно проплачены Кремлем, иначе ведь и быть не может.

    Да и вообще кто не ска... т.е. кто не верит украинским СМИ, тот конечно же москаль.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by E-learner View Post
    Heavy fighting resumed at the whole front.
    It happens almost every time after a Russian "humanitarian convoy" arrives.
    You mean heavy shelling of residential parts of Donetsk by the Ukrainian artillery.

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    Moderator Lampada's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SergeMak View Post
    You mean heavy shelling of residential parts of Donetsk by the Ukrainian artillery.
    А зачем укранской артиллерии ждать российского гуманитарного конвоя?
    "...Важно, чтобы форум оставался местом, объединяющим людей, для которых интересны русский язык и культура. ..." - MasterАdmin (из переписки)



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    Quote Originally Posted by Lampada View Post
    А зачем укранской артиллерии ждать российского гуманитарного конвоя?
    Да никто никого не ждет, стрельба идет с обоих сторон каждый день.
    И конвой тут не причем, просто еще один повод навешать три короба лапши на уши оболваненных патриотов.
    По той же самой причине на украинских СМИ есть все свежие сплетни про курс российского рубля и очень мало про реальное положение дел с гривной, ну правильно, зачем расстраивать украинских патриотов.
    Раньше просто факты передергивали, теперь просто врут: ложь, фотошоп и прочие "зомболучи из телефонов" от мадам Васильевой - Елена Васильева пугает Украину российскими "зомбирующими лучами"

    а украинский народ это все хавает, ну как после этого не поверить что российские гумконвои привозят оружие, и плевать что есть несколько видео где явно видно что никакого оружия там нет, и плевать что даже BBC признало что гумконвои перевозят в самом деле гумманитарную помощь, и плевать что ОБСЕ и Красный Крест говорят что оружия там нет и украинская сторона досматривает машины. Ведь есть украинские СМИ, самие патриотичные СМИ, они ж не будут врать своим людям, не, ну правда, ну зачем им врать? А все остальные врут, их всех Путин купил.
    Вот такая она, современная украинская "правда"

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    Quote Originally Posted by hddscan View Post
    Да никто никого не ждет, стрельба идет с обоих сторон каждый день.
    И конвой тут не причем, просто еще один повод навешать три короба лапши на уши оболваненных патриотов.
    По той же самой причине на украинских СМИ есть все свежие сплетни про курс российского рубля и очень мало про реальное положение дел с гривной, ну правильно, зачем расстраивать украинских патриотов.
    Раньше просто факты передергивали, теперь просто врут: ложь, фотошоп и прочие "зомболучи из телефонов" от мадам Васильевой - Елена Васильева пугает Украину российскими "зомбирующими лучами"

    а украинский народ это все хавает, ну как после этого не поверить что российские гумконвои привозят оружие, и плевать что есть несколько видео где явно видно что никакого оружия там нет, и плевать что даже BBC признало что гумконвои перевозят в самом деле гумманитарную помощь, и плевать что ОБСЕ и Красный Крест говорят что оружия там нет и украинская сторона досматривает машины. Ведь есть украинские СМИ, самие патриотичные СМИ, они ж не будут врать своим людям, не, ну правда, ну зачем им врать? А все остальные врут, их всех Путин купил.
    Вот такая она, современная украинская "правда"
    Я мало читаю из политики, но интересно, что ты не сомневаешься в правдивости российских СМИ. А я подозреваю, что либо и те и другие врут без зазрения совести, либо толком не знают, что происходит на самом деле.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lampada View Post
    Я мало читаю из политики, но интересно, что ты не сомневаешься в правдивости российских СМИ. А я подозреваю, что либо и те и другие врут. без зазрения совести, либо толком не знают, что происходит на самом деле.
    Очень интересный вывод. Учитывая что я намеренно стараюсь не цитировать российские СМИ
    Как раз чтобы избежать таких обвинений.

    Я цитировал официальный репорт ОБСЕ и господина Шария-бывший украинский журналист, ныне европейский. Так что ваши обвинения не имеют оснований

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    Обе стороны занимаются пропагандой, только уровни разные. Как сказал Шарий, это колхозный клуб vs. CNN.

    Украинские любой неправдоподобный фейк до уровня комментариев гос. лиц поднимают.
    РоссСми избегают откровенный бред пускать в эфир. Они больше фокусируются на "правильной" интерпретации реальных фактов.

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    Donetsk, January 19th
    A school and a pre-school after shelling.
    A local gives his "thanks" to Ukrainian army.

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