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Thread: Korean Airlines Flight 007 survivors and other alleged conspiracies

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    Завсегдатай Throbert McGee's Avatar
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    After thinking about it, there is one other point I want to offer for Marcus to consider, although I don't expect to change his mind.

    In his meticulously detailed diary, Norwegian bomber/gunman Anders Behring Breivik describes at great length how he spent almost a year obtaining the materials needed for his carbombs -- a few chemicals here, a few electronics there -- in order to avoid attracting attention to himself by making a large purchase at one time. And also in the diary, Breivik calculates that if he had worked with four co-conspirators, he could have made the bombs in six months, and if he'd had nine co-conspirators, he could have done it in less than two months.

    But, instead, ABB decided that it was better to act totally alone -- and his reasoning was that each additional co-conspirator would represent another potential "leak". A co-conspirator might have a loss of nerves and betray the conspiracy to the authorities; or he might say something careless to his wife, and she gets worried and calls the police; or perhaps he simply gets arrested for drunk driving, and in the standard background-check, the police find that he has a past connection with white-supremacist groups, which in turn leads the cops to accidentally discover his link to the conspiracy.

    I think the truth of what Breivik wrote is obvious, and that any "CIA black-ops / false-flag" conspiracy theory about 9/11 must recognize the importance of minimizing the number of conspirators. But in my opinion, most of these "alternative 9/11 theories" tend to fail Breivik's "too many cooks spoil the broth" test.

    For example, the theory that there were explosives inside the WTC buildings overlooks the fact that it generally takes a LARGE TEAM of demolition experts (= more co-conspirators) to place the explosives for the controlled demolition of a tall building. In principle, it could be done by fewer people, but then it requires much more time, increasing the risk that the explosives would be accidentally discovered by employees in the building.

    So in my opinion, the "official American government version" has the advantage of limiting the number of conspirators -- there may have been fewer than two-dozen operating within the US, with an unknown number of middlemen engaged in money-laundering outside the US, plus a few "top bosses."

    If Marcus wants an "alternative version," however, I'd suggest a somewhat simpler one: the "official version" is MOSTLY true (there were 19 hijackers on four airplanes; there were no explosives in the buildings; the towers fell because the burning jet fuel caused heat-failure of the steel, etc.), EXCEPT that the hijackers were actually fanatical American CIA agents, and not fanatical foreign Islamists.

    Or, one could argue that there were, in a sense, TWO conspiracies: the "kamikaze" attacks on 9/11 planned and executed by a group of Middle Eastern fanatics of unknown identity; and a second conspiracy by Bush and the CIA after 9/11, to link the attacks specifically with Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, and thus create an excuse for the Afghanistan war. Indeed, there are probably millions of Americans who believe some version of this: that the 11 September terror attacks truly were carried out by Islamic terrorists, but that Bush lied and lied and lied about the the connection to "Al Qaeda" in order to justify a hunt for Bin Laden in Afghanistan. Whether you agree with this or not, it's a better "alternative interpretation" of the known facts than what Marcus has offered.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Throbert McGee View Post

    For example, the theory that there were explosives inside the WTC buildings overlooks the fact that it generally takes a LARGE TEAM of demolition experts (= more co-conspirators) to place the explosives for the controlled demolition of a tall building. In principle, it could be done by fewer people, but then it requires much more time, increasing the risk that the explosives would be accidentally discovered by employees in the building.
    А на это у сторонников теории заговора есть "простой" ответ: взрывчатка была заложена в здания во время их строительства.

    Согласно методу Шерлока Холмса надо отбросить неправильные версии и тогда оставшаяся, какой бы невероятной она ни была, будет ответом на загадку. Многочисленные теории заговоров показывают, что бывает, если на начальном этапе отбросить правильную версию. Приходится придумывать всё более и более невероятные объяснения. Взывать к логике бесполезно. Им кажется, что это они проводят расследование, руководствуясь логикой. Самое смешное, что в каком-то смысле так и есть, просто в основе рассуждений ошибочная предпосылка. Например, Маркус почему-то верит, что спецслужбы не могут ошибаться. В его представлении это аксиома. Поэтому любое утверждение, которое ей противоречит, включая предположение о теракте, легко опровергается с помощью логики. Если вы продолжаете считать, что это были теракты, то, значит, вы руководствуетесь не логикой, а чем-то ещё, верой.

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    А на это у сторонников теории заговора есть "простой" ответ: взрывчатка была заложена в здания во время их строительства.
    And they waited for 30 years to blow it up?
    Not to mention that out of thousands of construction workers some would have noticed something suspicious.

    As throbert said - "fake hijacking" 4 remote controlled cargo planes is a lot easier...

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    Quote Originally Posted by nulle View Post
    And they waited for 30 years to blow it up?
    Not to mention that out of thousands of construction workers some would have noticed something suspicious.
    Я не помню деталей, кажется, утверждалось, что это секретное условие контракта, чтобы башни можно было быстро снести, когда на их месте захотят построить что-нибудь ещё более грандиозное. Заряды можно заложить в балки на заводе и уже в таком виде привезти на строительную площадку. Но дело не в этом. Если известно, что башни взорваны и во время эксплуатации их невозможно было заминировать, из этого логически следует, что их заминировали, когда строили. Не так ли?

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    Если известно, что башни взорваны и во время эксплуатации их невозможно было заминировать, из этого логически следует, что их заминировали, когда строили. Не так ли?
    But what makes you think that it was a controlled demolition in the first place?
    And I have never heard of such practice - to plant explosives during construction.
    (except maybe in some kind of top secret military facilities which can self destruct in case of enemy attack)

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    Quote Originally Posted by nulle View Post
    But what makes you think that it was a controlled demolition in the first place?
    And I have never heard of such practice - to plant explosives during construction.
    (except maybe in some kind of top secret military facilities which can self destruct in case of enemy attack)
    Common sense?

    So fire and fragments melted steel so that it crumbled on top of itself and the entire buildings all fall into the next floors like buildings which are fallen via demolition?!?

    Ok.

    Also, people laugh at conspiracy but they don't care about liars?!? The USA SAID THEY FOUND WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION in Iraq. Iraq had collaborated with Bin Laden and Al Qaeda allowing the terrorists to carry out the plan? All of this has been proven false. They are blatant lies. It shows you can't trust them. No on talks about this. They concentrate on other things and have no evidence to support the official story. Also, you look at Building Number 7.

    People are so indoctrinated and conditioned to believe the official story but if you don't, you are obstracized and ridiculed as a crazy person and not part of the society. It is a great society where free thinkers are celebrated, surely.

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    Завсегдатай Throbert McGee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pavelov View Post
    So fire and fragments melted steel so that it crumbled on top of itself and the entire buildings all fall into the next floors like buildings which are fallen via demolition?!?
    Not so much "melted" as "softened", but otherwise -- yes, DUH.



    (Going back to my comment above about the history of the American slang "duuuuh", pay close attention to 0:18 and 1:27 in this мультик from 1961. The "Abominable Snowman" is a parody of the "Lennie" character from the 1939 film Of Mice and Men.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pavelov View Post
    People are so indoctrinated and conditioned to believe the official story but if you don't, you are ostracized and ridiculed as a crazy person and not part of the society.
    Well, Pavelov, at least you can find some small comfort in knowing that you're in the company of Galileo and Voltaire...

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    Завсегдатай Throbert McGee's Avatar
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    I guess the obvious question to ask self-described "9/11 Skeptics" who believe there were explosives in the WTC buildings would be:

    Assuming for the sake of argument that there were no explosives, and only the fire from the jet fuel, how do you think the towers ought to have collapsed? Did you expect them to fall over like a tree cut by a lumberjack? Or do you believe that they should have only half-collapsed, to the level of the "crash zone" floors, while the lower structure remained intact?

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