Thread: Just to let everyone know...

Sorry if it seems a little off topic at first, but it pertains to a lot of the discussions here. George W. Bush is not (NOT) a capitalist. He does _not_ promote a free market economy or individual rights. His administration illegally spies on Americans, illegally detains them, and imposes intense income taxes. He supports corporate subsidies. He supports the war in Iraq, which is also not capitalist. Ok...just wanted you to know.

May be an imperialist then?

Не волнуйтесь, мы уже сознаем, что Джордж Буш - пень березовый.

Originally Posted by rush88

Sorry if it seems a little off topic at first, but it pertains to a lot of the discussions here. George W. Bush is not (NOT) a capitalist. He does _not_ promote a free market economy or individual rights. His administration illegally spies on Americans, illegally detains them, and imposes intense income taxes. He supports corporate subsidies. He supports the war in Iraq, which is also not capitalist. Ok...just wanted you to know.

In fact, its not a big secret. Everyone knows, what a ideals US is promoting ("free market", "liberal economy", etc.) are absolutely different from real american internal policy (corporatocracy, government as the primary investor, strong protectionism, etc.)

Originally Posted by Scorpio

Originally Posted by rush88

Sorry if it seems a little off topic at first, but it pertains to a lot of the discussions here. George W. Bush is not (NOT) a capitalist. He does _not_ promote a free market economy or individual rights. His administration illegally spies on Americans, illegally detains them, and imposes intense income taxes. He supports corporate subsidies. He supports the war in Iraq, which is also not capitalist. Ok...just wanted you to know.

In fact, its not a big secret. Everyone knows, what a ideals US is promoting ("free market", "liberal economy", etc.) are absolutely different from real american internal policy (corporatocracy, government as the primary investor, strong protectionism, etc.)

there's nothing ideal in this world, but the US remains one of the most free markets out there. Another major one which is quite free (in its' own way) is in fact China
Which is why these two countries (barring unforeseen internal political problems in China) will continue to lead the world economy.

Originally Posted by laxxy

Originally Posted by Scorpio

In fact, its not a big secret. Everyone knows, what a ideals US is promoting ("free market", "liberal economy", etc.) are absolutely different from real american internal policy (corporatocracy, government as the primary investor, strong protectionism, etc.)

there's nothing ideal in this world, but the US remains one of the most free markets out there.

Just say it to Ukrainian (and Russian, and Chinese) steel manufacturers...

Originally Posted by laxxy

Another major one which is quite free (in its' own way) is in fact China

In his very own specific way, probably.

Originally Posted by laxxy

Which is why these two countries (barring unforeseen internal political problems in China) will continue to lead the world economy.

Yep. China is working, USA is printing banknotes.

Originally Posted by Scorpio

Originally Posted by laxxy

Originally Posted by Scorpio

In fact, its not a big secret. Everyone knows, what a ideals US is promoting ("free market", "liberal economy", etc.) are absolutely different from real american internal policy (corporatocracy, government as the primary investor, strong protectionism, etc.)

there's nothing ideal in this world, but the US remains one of the most free markets out there.

Just say it to Ukrainian (and Russian< and Chinese) steel manufacturers...

afaik those restrictions have been done away with, albeit after some pressure through the WTO. They were a purely political move to start with (an attempt to woo Pennsylvania voters), and most likely hurt American economy more than any other.
But yes, no country and no man is perfect, and neither is the US It's just other places (like Europe, or Russia) are worse in this respect.

Originally Posted by laxxy

Another major one which is quite free (in its' own way) is in fact China

In his very own specific way, probably.

Yup. An average small or medium Chinese businessman has a lot fewer things to worry about than a Russian or even an American one. Add lower taxes, no social security whatsoever, etc... Not necessarily the ideal place to live for everyone, but definitely conductive to economic growth.

Originally Posted by laxxy

Which is why these two countries (barring unforeseen internal political problems in China) will continue to lead the world economy.

Yep. China is working, USA is printing banknotes.

Originally Posted by laxxy

Just say it to Ukrainian (and Russian< and Chinese) steel manufacturers...

afaik those restrictions have been done away with, albeit after some pressure through the WTO. They were a purely political move to start with (an attempt to woo Pennsylvania voters), and most likely hurt American economy more than any other.
But yes, no country and no man is perfect, and neither is the US It's just other places (like Europe, or Russia) are worse in this respect.

Um, yes: "purely political move", which has nothing to do with economics. In other words, political reasons are prevalent over economical.
And steel is not the only example: how about the medicines (just try to find a non-american production in american drug-stores), and food imports?

Originally Posted by laxxy

Another major one which is quite free (in its' own way) is in fact China

In his very own specific way, probably.

Yup. An average small or medium Chinese businessman has a lot fewer things to worry about than a Russian or even an American one. Add lower taxes, no social security whatsoever, etc... Not necessarily the ideal place to live for everyone, but definitely conductive to economic growth.
[/quote]

Really? In Russia (as well known) the income tax is 13% flat. And in China...

http://www.worldwide-tax.com/china/china_tax.asp

* The tax on an individual's income is progressive. As at 2005, an individual's income is taxed progressively at 5% - 45%.
* A limited company in China is liable for tax at the rate of 33% in 2005. This tax is made up of a 30% national tax and a 3% local tax.
* Companies in China that are located in specific legally defined areas pay company tax of 24%.

Originally Posted by Scorpio

Originally Posted by laxxy

Just say it to Ukrainian (and Russian< and Chinese) steel manufacturers...

afaik those restrictions have been done away with, albeit after some pressure through the WTO. They were a purely political move to start with (an attempt to woo Pennsylvania voters), and most likely hurt American economy more than any other.
But yes, no country and no man is perfect, and neither is the US It's just other places (like Europe, or Russia) are worse in this respect.

Um, yes: "purely political move", which has nothing to do with economics. In other words, political reasons are prevalent over economical.

Yes. so? In this world, nothing is ideal -- things can only be seen in comparison.

And steel is not the only example: how about the medicines (just try to find a non-american production in american drug-stores)

er?!
There are typically no origin marks on the generics, so I can't tell you anything there, but I have 3 brand prescriptions around that I've used recently. One is made in England, one in Belgium, one in France.

and food imports?

I wonder if that "made in Holland" cheese in my fridge a fake? Or the Obolon and Baltika beer in the local liquor store?

[quote:1qb0g0z1][quote:1qb0g0z1]

Originally Posted by laxxy

Another major one which is quite free (in its' own way) is in fact China

In his very own specific way, probably.

Yup. An average small or medium Chinese businessman has a lot fewer things to worry about than a Russian or even an American one. Add lower taxes, no social security whatsoever, etc... Not necessarily the ideal place to live for everyone, but definitely conductive to economic growth.
[/quote:1qb0g0z1]

Really? In Russia (as well known) the income tax is 13% flat. [/quote:1qb0g0z1]

And have we accidentally forgotten the payroll taxes ("nalogi na fond zarabotnoi platy", iirc)?
And you should also bring in the VAT (and the profit tax, if Russia has it now).

But really, the only way to compare is to look at the aggregate.
Using the numbers from the CIA website, you can see that the budget revenues are 18% of GDP in China and 24% in Russia -- and that is without the "vnebjudzhetnye fondy", who are probably the worst offenders. Also recall that the Russian GDP figures include a substantial and rather arbitrary markup "to account for the shadow economy".

But mostly, it's not even so much about taxes...

Bush is a Stalin wannabe ha ha ha...