G8 Summit and Russia's Prez

Actually, if I can dwell on that last point of yours. There is much debate on the necessity of dropping the Nagasaki and Hiroshima bomb. At that point in the war Japan was losing on all fronts: Germany had surrendered and USSR had just declared war on Japan. USA had invaded Okinawa and were at the doorsteps of Japan. Japan was close to surrendering. So why drop the bombs? Several reasons: yes to end the war a little sooner, avoiding the need to invade Japan, possibly losing many valuable soldier's lives. A couple of hundred thousand civilians will make Japan think twice. Most importantly it was to test the nuclear bombs, after all they have never been used before in combat. That is why they used two different bombs. Thridly, and the main reason: To scare the living daylights out of the Russians. A new, super weapon the world had never seen before. Prove American superiority and prevent any monkey-business from Stalin.

All this for the cost of a couple of hundred thousand Japanese civilians! Not a bad deal, eh?

:roll: Well geez at least we didn't deliberately go out of our way to assemble missiles 90 miles off your coast.

Anyway, it's late here and I gotta go. Goodbye until tomorrow...

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Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

:roll: Well geez at least we didn't deliberately go out of our way to assemble missiles 90 miles off your coast.

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You mean trying to assemble missiles within somebody's coast is the same as using 'em or droping nuclear bombs on civilians?

At least we can be content that USSR never used it's nuclear power killing innocent people. You obviously can't say the same.

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Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

You mean trying to assemble missiles within somebody's coast is the same as using 'em or droping nuclear bombs on civilians?

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No, I wrote that to counter kalinka's point that we tried to scare the Russians by using an atomic bomb. I was just saying that you scared us with missiles.

Anyway, how could we have been sure that the Japanese wouldn't have killed more of our innocent soldiers if we didn't drop the bomb? Still though, maybe we should've just dropped it on a Japanese naval base or something instead of on a city full of civilians. :|

:lol: That's the first time I heard the term "innocent soldiers"! A soldier, by definition, can not be innocent! His main purpose, after all, is to kill.

But I understand your point, it was obviously going to be a difficult invasion of the Japanese isles and to brandish this new weapon made everybody stop and think (and surrender).

I personally believe all this mutual missile building is based on silly paranoia that the other is out to get them. USA was so scared of the USSR that they formed NATO (1949), which made USSR scared and they formed the Warsaw pact (1955), USSR was afraid of capatilist swines having nuclear weapons bent on destryoing them so they built their own, which made USA more scared of the commie bastards and deploy missiles in Europe, which made USSr scared and deployed missiles in Cuba etc. etc. It was a silly viscious cycle. You can hardly blame either part.

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Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

I personally believe all this mutual missile building is based on silly paranoia that the other is out to get them. USA was so scared of the USSR that they formed NATO (1949), which made USSR scared and they formed the Warsaw pact (1955), USSR was afraid of capatilist swines having nuclear weapons bent on destryoing them so they built their own, which made USA more scared of the commie bastards and deploy missiles in Europe, which made USSr scared and deployed missiles in Cuba etc. etc. It was a silly viscious cycle. You can hardly blame either part.

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I suppose so, that makes sense. So maybe gRomoZeka and I should call a truce here. :)

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Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

I suppose so, that makes sense. So maybe gRomoZeka and I should call a truce here. :)

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+1

Its pretty clear that if the United States would have invaded Japan, more civilians would have died in the fighting that would have taken place as opposed to how many died in the two bomb explosions. We did them a favor, who else was gunna get them off their high horse.

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Originally Posted by Dogboy182

Its pretty clear that if the United States would have invaded Japan, more civilians would have died in the fighting that would have taken place as opposed to how many died in the two bomb explosions. We did them a favor, who else was gunna get them off their high horse.

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Uhh... what, why would more civilians die if we invaded Japan? Are you saying that the American soldiers would go and kill civilians?

70 000 killed instantly in Hiroshima alone. Similar number injured. Then the countless of people who died later of radiation and babies born mutant... Similar numbers in Nagasaki... I don't think you can justify it by saying we did them a favor!

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Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

I suppose so, that makes sense. So maybe gRomoZeka and I should call a truce here. :)

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Fine with me. :)
Now after that posts race we know how arms race worked. :wink:

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Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

Uhh... what, why would more civilians die if we invaded Japan?
Are you saying that the American soldiers would go and kill civilians?

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Yes. For a few reasons. Civilians were known throughout the war to be just as hostile to the Allies as the regular army. When Allied planes were shot down, farmers would flock to the site of the crash and immidiately kill any survivors with pitchforks or shovels. It is most likely due to the propoganda spread by the Japnanese goverment, warning the Japanese population that Americans were bloodythirsty cannibals, and would kill their families, eat their babies... etc... But this is what happend. Havnt you ever seen those videos when from when americans landed on Okinawa, they approach villages and the civilians throw their children off of the cliffs and drown them in the ocean because they were afraid that the Americans would kill them and eat them? When in reality they were just medics, or supply units trying to liberate the villages, and look for wounded. Its on the history channel all the time.

Second, The same thing that happend in Germany would have happend in Japan... All civilian males who could pick up a rifle, or sword or shovel, would have been mobilized, and probably every teenage girl age 16+ who could carry a weapon would have been rounded up and ordered to fight along with the army. They would have found untill American forces reached the steps of the goverment building and draped the American flag off of the balcony, Much like the Soviets did to the Reichstag. Ever seen pictures of the Reichstag? The Soviets hanging their flag while buildings burn and fighting rages in the backround?

It would have been a simalur scene in Tokyo, or wherever the emperor was giving his orders.

Official publications from the American side estimate AT LEAST 1,000,000 dead US soldiers, twice that wounded, and an uncountable number of Japanese army, civilian deaths within the first DAYS of the invasion of mainland Japan.

Every able Japanese person would have fought to the death, weather because they were scared of the Americans, or because they were following their "Samurai" (Spelling) code.

Sure 70,000 is a lot, and deing in a nuclear bomb must not be the best way to go. But I assure you, Dropping the 2 bombs did both sides a favor in the long run.

-Now I am going to quote the Beastie Boys and go ahead and say
"Yeah, You can't front on that".

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/5376/berlinwy2.jpg

While we're on the subject.

No. You can not go from the supposition that a civilian is a potential military threat and therefore must be wiped out, that sounds a little like a moustached teetotal vegetarian in leather boots would say. You can't morally justify killing a thousands of 1-year-olds because their mother might have drowned them anyway if we came knocking on their door.

Here is a quote for you:

The United States Strategic Bombing Survey, after interviewing hundreds of Japanese civilian and military leaders after Japan surrendered, reported:
"Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts, and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey's opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/USS ... tml#jstetw

Based on a purely military standpoint of view, the bombings were unnecessary.

Besides, if the Germans had dropped a nuke on Miami, wouldn't we have treated that as a warcrime? The winners always write the history! :)

Well that's one hippies opinion. But the true facts are there. Japan would have fought to the death just like their allies Germany did.

Besides, thats germanies fault for not figuring out how to use heavey water properly to build an automic bomb. All is fair in love in war untill you say it isn't, but you're wrong.

LOL, did you just call me a hippie or the US Strategic bombing survey? This hippie's ass is helping YOU in the Air Force, buster! :lol:

On topic, so we agree to disagree :)

babykiller!

The brigader general who wrote that survey. Hes probly a hippie.

Anyways, Its dumb to argue about things that never took place. But Uh, i dont know how its plausable to assume that the second US forces set foot on Japanese soil they woulda just gave up and embraced us when every single battle that took place on the defenders homeland in the history of the world proves otherwise.

But whatever, there no prerequisite for non hippies in the air force so im sure everyone's oppinion is out there somewhere.

Guyz, you never should be left alone for the weekend. 3 damn whole pages to read! :)

..EAST is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet...
(Rudyard Kipling)

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Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Now after that posts race we know how arms race worked. :wink:

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LOL :lol:

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Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

LOL, did you just call me a hippie or the US Strategic bombing survey? This hippie's ass is helping YOU in the Air Force, buster! :lol:

On topic, so we agree to disagree :)

babykiller!

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You're in the USAF?

[quote=Бармалей]

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Originally Posted by "kalinka_vinnie":2kazl0z2

LOL, did you just call me a hippie or the US Strategic bombing survey? This hippie's ass is helping YOU in the Air Force, buster! :lol:

On topic, so we agree to disagree :)

babykiller!

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You're in the USAF?[/quote:2kazl0z2]

I thought you were Russian :?

I am neither in the AF or Russian :) The Air Force is simply our customer :)

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Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

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Originally Posted by Ramil

And who gave you a right to stop anything that happens in sovereign country? Who gave you the right to say what is good for them and what is evil? Who gave you the right to ram your lifestyle down into throats of others? What makes you think that American way is the best?
Mind your own business. Every nation has a right to live as they want.
Wars are about resources and money, not ideology.

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And what gave YOU the right to ram communism down the throats of 14 other nations and bring them into the Soviet Union? Mind your own business.

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Yeah Ramil, wtf? Bad Ramil, baaaaad Ramil.

[quote=kalinka_vinnie][quote="Бармалей":31kc8idw]
You're in the USAF?[/quote]
No, but we have a multi-million dollar contract with the Air Force :wink:

[url="http://heasarc.nasa.gov/docs/heasarc/missions/dmsp.html"]http://heasarc.nasa.gov/docs/heasarc/missions/dmsp.html[/url]

All built be me! :smug: (and thousands of other people)

And no, I am not Russian :lol:[/quote:31kc8idw]
Oh, ok. So you're a hippy who has penetrated our government's contracting organs, eh? At least now, I know that I can get Rtyem to sell me nuclear reactors (what ever happened to him anyway?) and that I can procure satellites through you. Mwahahaha.
Disclaimer (for the *cough* admins): All of the above was said in a JOKING manner. Please do not assume that I a)am truly impugning KV's integrity or b) seriously am trying to buy that stuff.

What are you smoking, Barm? I never posted that!

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Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

What are you smoking, Barm? I never posted that!

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Jigga what!??!

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Originally Posted by kalinka_vinnie

I am neither in the AF or Russian :) The Air Force is simply our customer :)

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Sell them rusty bolts :)

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Originally Posted by adoc

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Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

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Originally Posted by Ramil

And who gave you a right to stop anything that happens in sovereign country? Who gave you the right to say what is good for them and what is evil? Who gave you the right to ram your lifestyle down into throats of others? What makes you think that American way is the best?
Mind your own business. Every nation has a right to live as they want.
Wars are about resources and money, not ideology.

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And what gave YOU the right to ram communism down the throats of 14 other nations and bring them into the Soviet Union? Mind your own business.

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Yeah Ramil, wtf? Bad Ramil, baaaaad Ramil.

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I didn't do that, believe me. If I were the one who did that the whole world would have been communistic by now. Say amen to that :) I don't ram anything down the throat. I ram it directly in a brain. :)

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Originally Posted by Ramil

Wars are about resources and money, not ideology.

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Clearly you missed the point of WW2 then, which was to defeat fascism--an ideology. It had nothing to do with money and resources.

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Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

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Originally Posted by Ramil

Wars are about resources and money, not ideology.

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Clearly you missed the point of WW2 then, which was to defeat fascism--an ideology. It had nothing to do with money and resources.

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Did you for get about that whole "Lebensraum" thing? :?:

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Clearly you missed the point of WW2 then, which was to defeat fascism--an ideology.

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An ideology cannot be defeated. It does not rely on military strength, missiles, tanks, rifles, resources, plants, cities... It does on people's brains. And in order to defeat an ideology you must destroy the planet itself. To make sure noone is able to bear or express dangerous ideas.

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Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

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Originally Posted by Ramil

Wars are about resources and money, not ideology.

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Clearly you missed the point of WW2 then, which was to defeat fascism--an ideology. It had nothing to do with money and resources.

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Germany's economy after the WWI was utterly destroyed. Unemployment, inflation were disastorous. Hitler made an "economic miracle" but to finance all that he desperately needed resourses. Firstly he annexes Austria, then Czhechoslovakia. He rushes in Romania with its oil deposits, his army group "South" in Russian campaign had Caucasus as its target also because of oil.
And persecution of Jews in Germany had its aim among other things to nationalize their property to fund military orders placed in industry thus creating jobs.
War is a very expensive thing and you need a lot of money when time comes to feeding soldiers. Where do you suppose he intended to get all this from?

Ideology is an instrument of policy, not the other way around.

So? That was Hitler's problem, not ours. OUR purpose in WW2 (which is what I was talking about) was to defeat the IDEOLOGY of fascism and stop it from spreading around the globe.

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Originally Posted by Бармалей

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Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

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Originally Posted by Ramil

Wars are about resources and money, not ideology.

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Clearly you missed the point of WW2 then, which was to defeat fascism--an ideology. It had nothing to do with money and resources.

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Did you for get about that whole "Lebensraum" thing? :?:

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Lebensraum was Hitler's business. I meant our business in WW2 had nothing to do with money and what not. It was only to defeat Hitler and his fascist empire.

I must remind that the USSR supported German Fascism until Germans invaded on the Soviet Union itself.

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Originally Posted by mishau_

I must remind that the USSR supported German Fascism until Germans invaded on the Soviet Union itself.

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I know that. So? I wasn't talking about the USSR, just saying that the US entered the war (European front) to try to put an end to fascism.

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the US entered the war (European front) to try to put an end to fascism.

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The end of fascism was inevitable. They entered the war to not allow the USSR to be the first to capture Berlin and gain full control of Europe.

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Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

So? That was Hitler's problem, not ours. OUR purpose in WW2 (which is what I was talking about) was to defeat the IDEOLOGY of fascism and stop it from spreading around the globe.

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You forget that the jews have a very strong lobby in your country. Besides, war created many jobs, the gold reserve of France was moved to Fort Knox entirely and had never been returned after the war. United States became a major power after the WW2 because of the fact that Europe was in ruins and, of course, the bomb, which was invented mostly by European physics who fled from Hitler.
States had a boosted economy and gained fantastic profits when Europe began rebuilding.

And remember - USA supported Hitler in 1930s.

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Originally Posted by Ramil

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Originally Posted by RusskiSlav

So? That was Hitler's problem, not ours. OUR purpose in WW2 (which is what I was talking about) was to defeat the IDEOLOGY of fascism and stop it from spreading around the globe.

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You forget that the jews have a very strong lobby in your country. Besides, war created many jobs, the gold reserve of France was moved to Fort Knox entirely and had never been returned after the war. United States became a major power after the WW2 because of the fact that Europe was in ruins and, of course, the bomb, which was invented mostly by European physics who fled from Hitler.
States had a boosted economy and gained fantastic profits when Europe began rebuilding.

And remember - USA supported Hitler in 1930s.

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The USSR supported Hitler until his invasion, and if he hadn't invaded, you may have kept your non-agression pact with him. And yes, war does create many jobs, but I was saying the PURPOSE of going to war was to defeat Hitler, we didn't enter with the intent of becoming an economic power in the back of our minds.

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Originally Posted by Vincent Tailors

The end of fascism was inevitable. They entered the war to not allow the USSR to be the first to capture Berlin and gain full control of Europe.

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Oh please, don't start this crap. We didn't even know we'd be racing the Soviets to Berlin when we entered the war. And the end of fascism was not inevitible. Hitler had conquered nearly all of Europe cuz Chamberlain didn't have the guts to stand up to him so he appeased him, and none of the other European powers (with the exception of Britain) seemed capable of defeating him. If they were capable, they wouldn't have all been conquered.

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And the end of fascism was not inevitible.

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Em? You mean Stalin suddenly becomes a very friend of Hitler and recalls all his forces back home leaving Hitler all alone?

That's something new to the world history...

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We didn't even know we'd be racing the Soviets to Berlin when we entered the war.

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you didn't.