Thread: Elections in Belarus

The communist ideology on the other hand postulates the planned economy... [...] Upon the graduation those students can only take the government's job and can only accept the rate established by the government. [...] Your education belongs to the state the same way anything else does. The education is free, but it's not yours. No muddling.

Sorry, but there is a little bit of muddling.
You make it sound as if these graduates were limited in their choices (state jobs ONLY), while in fact they could work anywhere (within their area of competence, of course), since technically ALL existing jobs were provided by the state (be that a janitor or a rocket scientist). And all these jobs were available to them.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Sorry, but there is a little bit of muddling.
You make it sound as if these graduates were limited in their choices (state jobs ONLY), while in fact they could work anywhere (within their area of competence, of course), since technically ALL existing jobs were provided by the state (be that a janitor or a rocket scientist). And all these jobs were available to them.

I agree, they were. That's what I think I said: the state was the only employer. So, if a janitor wanted to clean the public washrooms on the north side of the street or on the south side of the street, that was a choice available to him or her. However, the janitor would get the same salary established by the state regardless how clean those washrooms were. And the janitors would live in a place provided by the state when and where the state would see fit. So, when it comes to the education, it made sense for the state to cover the education cost for a rocket scientist and make those scientists work for 120 rubles a month for the rest of their lives regardless of what they were actually doing and how they performed. So, the whole point I was trying to make was that it's the communist propaganda that's muddling and makes it seem like the free education they provide is part of the state care for their people. I was trying to explain why I think it's a lie in a big picture. And back to the topic, the Belorussian government declares a free education (бесплатное образование) whilst, in fact, it doesn't provide it for free. But, in the meantime, they make it seem like they care about the young generation and that the education is their priority (or something like that). So, when a simple Belorussian is looking around and asking:

- Why am I living worse than a similar average citizen of Poland?
- Ah, but it's the whole package that matters. There's no free education in Poland, for example, but it's free in Belorussia to the good students.
- Ok, I see. The education is important for my kids too. Hope, they will be able to become engineers some day and provide good living for my grandchildren.

So, I was trying to say it's a lie, that's all. No muddling.

Originally Posted by Romik

Do you think my quotes were not enough to your "no muddling"? At all do you like sausage in Canada?

From the education in the US and the UK to the sausage in Canada. Практически "из Москвы - в Нагасаки, из Нью-Йорка - на Марс!"
My congrats, you would do a fair politician.
All I tried to say was a very simple thing. Our dear belorussianews would probably get a comparable education in the US and the UK without paying a dime by the time it's complete. In quite reverse to your allusion with the commies. Why it was so difficult for you to understand what I said? Why to start the casuistry of "free vs unpaid" terms or eluding to the vaguely-defined terms of college degree? Come on! I'm just a simple-minded crocodile, you don't need to be that clever with me.

PS. I buy the sausage mostly in Russian grocery stores, but that sausage is produced locally. It's just the Russian stores know how to make the right choice for me. For some reason, you can't find those sausages in the supermarkets. Tastes differ, I guess.

Originally Posted by Crocodile

I will too:


belarusnews, how many years have you studied after the high school?

Not all the universities in Belarus have the following system: Bachelors degree (4 years), master's (6 years).

The majority of universities provide 5-year studies and the graduates are called "young specialists".

After school I studied 5 years at the University.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Sorry, but there is a little bit of muddling.
You make it sound as if these graduates were limited in their choices (state jobs ONLY), while in fact they could work anywhere (within their area of competence, of course), since technically ALL existing jobs were provided by the state (be that a janitor or a rocket scientist). And all these jobs were available to them.

Yeah, some teachers come to a village and work there in a library ))) By the way, will you choose to work in Chernobyl area?

Originally Posted by belarusnews

After school I studied 5 years at the University.

That's exactly what I thought. So, your education is roughly comparable to the master's degree.

Originally Posted by belarusnews

Yeah, some teachers come to a village and work there in a library ))) By the way, will you choose to work in Chernobyl area?

So? What it has to do with state monopoly? Some people in any country and in any economy have cr@ppy jobs, and some don't have any. This is life. I don't see anything particularly horrible in working as a village librarian either. I almost moved to a village myself at one point of life.

What about Chernobyl zone - isn't it closed and out of limits? Or are you talking about people who service some technical stuff that is left there? I would not choose it, since my interests lay in another area, but if I'd get a good offer, I'd think about it.

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

So? What it has to do with state monopoly? Some people in any country and in any economy have cr@ppy jobs, and some don't have any. This is life. I don't see anything particularly horrible in working as a village librarian either. I almost moved to a village myself at one point of life.

What about Chernobyl zone - isn't it closed and out of limits? Or are you talking about people who service some technical stuff that is left there? I would not choose it, since my interests lay in another area, but if I'd get a good offer, I'd think about it.

Maybe you haven't grasped the exact point, but it's not just about having "cr@ppy" jobs, it's about FORCING everyone (who gets the so-called "free education") to have them.

And, belarusnews, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this practice of placing on jobs was abolished in Belarus right after the collapse of USSR and reenacted in 1998.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

Maybe you haven't grasped the exact point, but it's not just about having "cr@ppy" jobs, it's about FORCING everyone (who gets the so-called "free education") to have them.

Maybe it's you who haven't grasped my exact point. I don't consider all state jobs cr@ppy solely because they are state jobs. You people think for some reason that if the job is not provided by a private company it automatically makes a person an unhappy and repressed individual. I do not agree. So half of your arguments do not work for me.

I got a completely free education (didn't pay for it). Including a top boarding school (practically free) and 4 years of university (including a monthly stipend to live off).

I would have thought it reasonable if the state had asked me to take on an assignment in a designated role for a couple of years after that. In fact, it's a good way for new graduates to get experience without having to apply for jobs on the open market. I don't see a problem with this at all.

In my case, I promptly left the country that sponsored my education.... and became a contributor to the British economy and a tax payer there! Pretty bad, but I didn't consider that, at the time.

Originally Posted by Eric C.

And, belarusnews, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think this practice of placing on jobs was abolished in Belarus right after the collapse of USSR and reenacted in 1998.

If a state would give an opportunity either to pay for education and not to be placed on the state job, OR to get free education and be placed on the state job for some time - would you consider it an improvement?

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

Maybe it's you who haven't grasped my exact point. I don't consider all state jobs cr@ppy solely because they are state jobs. You people think for some reason that if the job is not provided by a private company it automatically makes a person an unhappy and repressed individual. I do not agree. So half of your arguments do not work for me.

If the jobs were just "provided", I would even consider that an advantage in some way... but FORCING someone to take a certain job (whatever sector of economy it belongs to) is unacceptable; if a person is satisfied with his/her placement, it's "half the trouble", but if not - it's just like kindof slavery...

Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

If a state would give an opportunity either to pay for education and not to be placed on the state job, OR to get free education and be placed on the state job for some time - would you consider it an improvement?

I do not actually care about what kind of job a person gets. What matters is his/her actual free will to take that job and start working. What about improvements... if the state either starts providing everyone (passed certain tests or whatever) with real free education (without payments or compulsory working off afterwards) OR removes this fake form of free education and stops declaring it has free education of any kind, I would consider that an improvement...

Originally Posted by Eric C.

If the jobs were just "provided", I would even consider that an advantage in some way... but FORCING someone to take a certain job (whatever sector of economy it belongs to) is unacceptable; if a person is satisfied with his/her placement, it's "half the trouble", but if not - it's just like kindof slavery...

Where is forcing? If a person is unsatisfied with the placement they just pay the compensation and work wherever they want. If you break a contract you shall compensate it, shan't you?

I don't think any of us who don't live in Belarus need to tell the forum members from there what is good or bad in their country!
I am sure they are already well aware of that.

But personally I wish everyone there the best - And that doesn't necessarily involve 10 years of crazy cowboy capitalism like Russia and Ukraine had. Unless the Belarussians themselves (without external influence) decide that this is a price is worth paying in order to pave the way for a future market economy.

And I am not sure that any EU countries that allow "torture flights" to Guantamo, participate in the Iraq and Afghanistan campaigns and export "execution drugs" to the US.... need to lecture Belarus about human rights. I am very irritated that it doesn't seem to be possible for any media to mention the word Belarus without immediately starting to talk about "dictatorship" and "human rights abuse".
I am sure there is some truth to the allegations. But there is clearly a smear campaign going on.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I am very irritated that it doesn't seem to be possible for any media to mention the word Belarus without immediately starting to talk about "dictatorship" and "human rights abuse".

That sounds like you've been living there and know for sure what's going on.

To my mind, if there's just one person who lives there and confirms that human rights violation's taking place, that can be trusted.

Александр Рыгорич Лукашенка дает интервью "Вашингтон Пост"
http://static.video.yandex.ru/lite/m...0fhxg2bt.3118/

=)
Президент вызывает к себе генералов.
– Сколько у Лукашенко дивизий?
– 4 дивизии, Дмитрий Анатольевич!
– Немного. У нас не возникнут проблемы, даже если он пойдет на Москву.
– Боимся, что возникнут, Дмитрий Анатольевич: если Лукашенко пойдет на Москву, то к Москве подойдут уже сорок дивизий.
(с)

Originally Posted by BappaBa

Александр Рыгорич Лукашенка дает интервью "Вашингтон Пост"
http://static.video.yandex.ru/lite/m...0fhxg2bt.3118/

=)
Президент вызывает к себе генералов.
– Сколько у Лукашенко дивизий?
– 4 дивизии, Дмитрий Анатольевич!
– Немного. У нас не возникнут проблемы, даже если он пойдет на Москву.
– Боимся, что возникнут, Дмитрий Анатольевич: если Лукашенко пойдет на Москву, то к Москве подойдут уже сорок дивизий.
(с)

So, do I get it right, the Russian people are ready to take that "wise father" upon themselves to help the people of Belarus get rid of him? I think it's quite noble. Keep on!

немного запоздало, но все же
Белорусская деревня: TUT.BY | НОВОСТИ - Хроника исчезающей деревни: Марс 10 лет спустя - Калейдоскоп - 10.04.2011, 08:00

I suppose that unlovely lassie in Hanna's video would prefer the constitution to be amended to allow Lukashenko to be made president for life like some banana republic African dictator, then they could save themselves the expense of having elections at all! Who do you think are the likely culprits for the Minsk metro bomb?