"EGYPT IS FREE!" - The Egyptian People Celebrate

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Originally Posted by Lampada

Клоун. http://forum.ourprivate.net/images/smilies/pain17.gif

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So, first of all, I must say I do not agree with the EG's interpretation of Onotole here, as it seems to me Onotole was answering a different question. I "deeply respect" the journalists who think everyone but themselves is stupid. :D The situation might benefit the US, but it does not mean it was designed by the US. That claim looks especially funny since the former Egypt dictatorship was one of the most loyal to the US in the entire Muslim World. Having said that, I think the US was probably aware of what were about to happen to Egypt and did not interfere. Well, as I said, the Empire strikes back. It's rather amusing to see people believe in the omnipotence of the US so much, so that they are eager to interpret any major shift in power as the direct US involvement. :D

Wave of unrest spreads to Iran.
The World Today - Wave of unrest spreads to Iran 15/02/2011

So, that's what it was all about.

and in Bahrain too...all part of the plan, that and the bombings in Dagestan.
Protesters Clash With Police In Bahrain As Arab Unrest Spreads

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Originally Posted by Ramil

Wave of unrest spreads to Iran.
The World Today - Wave of unrest spreads to Iran 15/02/2011

So, that's what it was all about.

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Iranian authorities officially supported the uprising in Egypt. But it was a different story when the wave of unrest reached Tehran's streets on Monday.

They don't seem to have been bothered to figure out what they had in common with the Egyptian regime. But it's quite simple - they are both dictatorships, and each system like theirs is doomed to be overthrown, sooner or later.

What about islamists, by the way? I guess everyone who was afraid of them coming to power in Egypt, is now supporting people of Iran in their struggle with the radical Islamic regime. Am I right?

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Originally Posted by Ramil

So, that's what it was all about.

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Yes, my young padawan learner. Much to learn you still have. ;)

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Originally Posted by Crocodile

Yes, my young padawan learner. Much to learn you still have. ;)

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Guided by you I will be, master. Orchestrated by CIA all these coups were, doubt I not :lol:

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Originally Posted by Ramil

Guided by you be I will, master.

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Witness the Great Empire strength unfolding. Meditate on the consequences and trust your feelings when it comes to action. ;)

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Originally Posted by Ramil

Orchestrated by CIA all these coups were, doubt I not :lol:

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Truly wonderful the mind of a child is. Much to learn you still have. Search your feelings: would an action on that scale be possible by the CIA to conduct without that being somehow-wiki-leaked a couple of weeks beforehand? Your feelings betray you not. The CIA is not an all-mighty, it's a bureaucracy, they can't do such things. Their primary job is to justify their expensive existence to the government. Most of the information is obtained legally, no need for the expensive undercover operations.

Why Egypt needs democracy? There's no oil there.

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Originally Posted by Ramil

Why Egypt needs democracy? There's no oil there.

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Huh? What do you mean, there's no oil in Egypt? Natural Resources of Egypt

"The oil reserves of Egypt draw huge annual revenues from its export profits. [...] The newly discovered oilfields in the Mediterranean seabed have opened up fresh opportunities for reviving the country's oil export business. The 3.7 million barrel reserve that Egypt previously possessed, now have more than doubled the reserve figures."

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Originally Posted by Ramil

... Orchestrated by CIA all these coups were, doubt I not :lol:

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You have a high opinion of CIA, don't you?

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Originally Posted by Crocodile

Huh? What do you mean, there's no oil in Egypt? Natural Resources of Egypt

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Oh, that explains it :)

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Originally Posted by Lampada

You have a high opinion of CIA, don't you?

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Yes. They were behind everything bad that had hapenned since 1945, weren't they? ;)

http://i55.tinypic.com/2q86cqt.jpg

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Originally Posted by Ramil

Yes. They were behind everything bad that had hapenned since 1945, weren't they? ;)
http://i55.tinypic.com/2q86cqt_jpg

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I hope it's just your sense of humor...

:lol: Only partially. Oh, have they done something good when I wasn't looking?

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Originally Posted by Ramil

:lol: Only partially. Oh, have they done something good when I wasn't looking?

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Everything is measured in comparison. What have the Soviet Union done to the Middle East in those glorious days? ;)
When it comes to Egypt, it was all sold inside out to the USSR until the mid 70 at which point it turned out it doesn't pay off to be allies with the USSR. Then Egypt found a new ally, the US and this way it got much more. Because of that, Egypt was one of the strongest allies to the US in the Middle East and, under Mubarak "Egypt was a member of the allied coalition in the 1991 Gulf War, and Egyptian infantry were some of the first to land in Saudi Arabia to evict Iraqi forces from Kuwait." (Hosni Mubarak - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) The US did not have any apparent reasons to change Mubarak, it was done by someone else. However, the US didn't save his long-term ally either. The gratitude of the politicians is proverbial... yeah...

Having said that, I'm not really sure what's the point of the caricature. It's not like the US didn't pay for the oil, did they? By the way, the Soviet Union exported their oil too, to those same capitalists, so why wouldn't they write СССР beside Ближний Восток? :D

As to the "blood" that is shed, I think the USSR should have sat quiet like a mouse, since the dominant majority of the Middle East countries have adopted the soviet weapons (until today) and the USSR was a major exporter of those weapons to the Middle East. On the other hand, Israel adopted NATO weapons. It has never been a secret the Middle East was a field testing for the soviet and the NATO weapons. (And not only the Middle East, by the way.)

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Originally Posted by Crocodile

Everything is measured in comparison. What have the Soviet Union done to the Middle East in those glorious days? ;)

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It gave a shitload of money to African and Middle Eastern developing states, along with sending civilian specialists - engineers, doctors, constructors- to help with making better living conditions for locals. The more intersting question is what it got in return - nothing tangible, in my opinion, just something to rub into USA face (nuh-nuh-nuh, there are more and more "Socialistic" states), and a lot of meaningless promises. USSR was arguably the only empire, that foolishly invested HUGE money in its "colonies" and allies, instead of draining them dry as any other self-respected empire did.

Well, sure, we imported weapons too. Who did not at the time? ))

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Originally Posted by Ramil

Why Egypt needs democracy? There's no oil there.

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Hehe... no... they were the exception to the rule... In their particular case... it seems in was "better" for them to have a 'stable' rule for 30 years. There is an American University there, for the elites, and Coca Cola for the masses,.... All good stuff... So no need to get too carried away with the democracy! (Particularly in view of the problems this would create for Israel.)
But of course, when it was a fait accompli, the tune was changed.

The hypocrisy of suddenly condemning a regime it has propped up for 30 years is unbelievable.
I would have respected the US more if it had actually stood by Mubarak. At least that means standing up to some principle... as opposed to being nothing but a manipulator, and when that fails, an opportunist.

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Originally Posted by gRomoZeka

self-respecting empire

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Originally Posted by Crocodile

Everything is measured in comparison. What have the Soviet Union done to the Middle East in those glorious days?

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Many things, actually. Education, power plants, weapons, money, know-hows, etc.

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Originally Posted by Crocodile

Having said that, I'm not really sure what's the point of the caricature. It's not like the US didn't pay for the oil, did they? By the way, the Soviet Union exported their oil too, to those same capitalists, so why wouldn't they write СССР beside Ближний Восток?

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I was sure you'll recognize it because it's a very old one, made by Кукрыниксы.

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Originally Posted by Crocodile

As to the "blood" that is shed, I think the USSR should have sat quiet like a mouse, since the dominant majority of the Middle East countries have adopted the soviet weapons (until today) and the USSR was a major exporter of those weapons to the Middle East. On the other hand, Israel adopted NATO weapons. It has never been a secret the Middle East was a field testing for the soviet and the NATO weapons. (And not only the Middle East, by the way.)

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Yes, we've been selling giving them weapons sometimes for free and pursuing our own agenda, but weapons were only a part of it (see above).

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Originally Posted by Hanna

[I]The hypocrisy of suddenly condemning a regime it has propped up for 30 years is unbelievable.

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Why? It was expected. Churchill once said 'Britain has no permanent allies, it only has permanent interests.' I don't see why US policy would differ from this.

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Originally Posted by Ramil

Many things, actually. Education, power plants, weapons, money, know-hows, etc.

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Ah, I see, when both you and Gromozeka replied similarly, it means it was my fault I didn't expressed myself correctly. I'll try to elaborate. For example, according to F.A.Q. on U.S. Aid to Egypt: Where Does the Money Go—And Who Decides How It’s Spent? - ProPublica since Egypt signed a peace treaty with Israel, "Egypt gets the most U.S. foreign aid of any country except for Israel. [...] The amount varies each year and there are many different funding streams, but U.S. foreign assistance to Egypt has averaged just over $2 billion every year since 1979. [...] That average includes both military and economic assistance, though the latter has been in decline since 1998 [...] but is generally in the hundreds of millions annually." In a nutshell, in terms of the aid the US had been doing for years pretty much the same thing that the USSR had been doing for years before that. With the soviet military aid, Egypt had started several wars against Israel. Each time the blood was shed and the price of oil went up (helping to boost the USSR economy as a by-product). So, what I meant was the USSR and the US were both doing the same thing developing Egyptian infrastructure and the Egyptian army and since everything is measured in comparison, the USSR wasn't entitled to criticize the US.

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Originally Posted by Ramil

I was sure you'll recognize it because it's a very old one, made by Кукрыниксы.

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Ahm.. I'm not that old as you think I am. :D It's just you added that caricature to the context, so I asked you to explain why. ;)

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Originally Posted by Hanna

The hypocrisy of suddenly condemning a regime it has propped up for 30 years is unbelievable.

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That's what they call the politics, my dear. ;)

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Originally Posted by Hanna

I would have respected the US more if it had actually stood by Mubarak. At least that means standing up to some principle...

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I think that is a very naive comment for someone who said she wants to become a politician. Do you think Mubarak was loyal to the US because he actually stood to a principle????????? :D

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Originally Posted by Crocodile

according to F.A.Q. on U.S. Aid to Egypt: Where Does the Money Go—And Who Decides How It’s Spent? - ProPublica

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You masterly switched the context, sir crocodile. I wan't speaking of US, but of CIA. )))
It was you who tried to oppose CIA (an organization) and USSR (a state).

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Originally Posted by Ramil

You masterly switched the context, sir crocodile. I wan't speaking of US, but of CIA. )))
It was you who tried to oppose CIA (an organization) and USSR (a state).

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Whoa!! Please, explain yourself. What do you mean I switched the context? I assumed the CIA reports to the US government as well as the KGB/GRU used to report to the USSR government. The USSR used to help Egypt and the US used to help Egypt. Both military and infrastructure-wise. Where do you think I crossed the line?

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Originally Posted by Crocodile

Whoa!! Please, explain yourself. What do you mean I switched the context?... Where do you think I crossed the line?

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I think it happenned right bout there:

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Originally Posted by Crocodile

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Originally Posted by Ramil

:lol: Only partially. Oh, have they done something good when I wasn't looking?

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Everything is measured in comparison. What have the Soviet Union done to the Middle East in those glorious days? ;)

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By 'they' I meant CIA (if you look at my previous remark) ;)

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Originally Posted by Crocodile

I assumed the CIA reports to the US government as well as the KGB/GRU used to report to the USSR government. The USSR used to help Egypt and the US used to help Egypt. Both military and infrastructure-wise.

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Come on, you should at least suspect that not everything CIA does it reports to the US Government, not to mention the people :) In fact, I think the government sometimes prefers not to know anything about their 'accomplishments' in order not to be embarassed later.

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Originally Posted by Ramil

By 'they' I meant CIA (if you look at my previous remark) ;)

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Ah, ok. Sorry about that. I looked at the caricature and I had an impression those who allegedly 'milked' the Middle East wore some 'capitalistic uniform', so I thought it's about the capitalists, and mainly the US as the primary enemy of the USSR back then. I didn't think that you only meant the CIA wearing those 'capitalist' clothes. I'd say if the artist had the CIA in mind, he would probably picture some 'James Bond' kind of a guy with a smoking gun and a sex bomb or something like that. But, never mind, that's not important.

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Originally Posted by Ramil

Come on, you should at least suspect that not everything CIA does it reports to the US Government

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Yes, I can agree with that. However, there's a HUGE distance between 'not everything' and make a series of revolutions in a couple of countries, won't you agree? ;)

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Originally Posted by Ramil

In fact, I think the government sometimes prefers not to know anything about their 'accomplishments' in order not to be embarassed later.

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Yes, that is a good point. But again, the design of anything on a large scale cannot qualify as a 'black operation'. ;) Come to think of it, I don't believe whenever the CIA boasts it was able to do something big like destroying the USSR from within by some kind of a smart tactics (i.e. keeping the oil down for a decade and stuff). Don't get me wrong, some of the CIA operatives are qualified enough to perform some very sophisticated things. But, when you try to design anything on a large scale, you notice the system is just too complex to be under control. Too many unpredictable/uncontrollable variables. And when you try to gather information about those variables, the situation had already changed. :)

Come on, I said I was only partly serious about that. I don't believe CIA orchestrated the Egyptian events. But still there were a number of 'revolutions' in other countries in which they played major roles.

Bella ciao - Egypt...

At the end are pictures of people who actually died in the protest. If anyone can read Arabic; what does it say?

Good luck and god bless to the people in Libya, Yemen, Bahrain, Iran and elsewhere in the Middle East who are wanting a change! Hope no one else has to die.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iJDrUhsXVwhttp://<a href="http://www.youtube.c...iJDrUhsXVw</a>

If someone is not familiar with this song: It's an old song for freedom fighters (during WW2, I think) and it's about someone who goes off to join the partisans, and says 'Goodbye my beautiful..... If I die, bury me in the mountains and plant flowers by my grave..'

Apparently both Mubarak and Ben-Ali got suddenly very sick after being ousted and both of them are in a coma. According to BBC.

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Originally Posted by Hanna

At the end are pictures of people who actually died in the protest. If anyone can read Arabic; what does it say?

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My Arabic has never been perfect, and now after many years without practice, it's downright pathetic. But I'll try: :)

Those at the end are the names of the people in the pictures, and they are referred to as "martyrs".

At 0:41, it's a rhyming verse, meaning something like: "Oh Army, Oh Tyrant! Beware of the formidable Almighty." Despite the rather threatening tone, no harm is meant: it's simply a reminder that whatever we do will be judged later. (See? Islamic beliefs can indeed be used in a good way! :D)

Thanks! You've got impressive language skills! I am aware of at least 4 languages that you can manage now - and quite different ones at that.

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Originally Posted by Lampada

" ...Some Israelis regard Egypt as the most anti-Semitic country in the entire Middle East. ..." ( HonestReporting ) This is sad.

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Lampada, just a quick follow-up regarding our olde talk about Egyptian-Israeli relations: BBC Russian - В мире - Нетаньяху: исход дипломатов не отменяет мир с Египтом

"... поскольку все понимают, что такое было невозможно при президенте Хосни Мубараке"

I know it might not change your mind, but at least I hope it could add some substance to my earlier claims that the Egyptian anti-semitic sentiments were not induced by Mubarak's regime. Cheers!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iboFV-yeTE&amp;feature=player_embedded&amp;skipcontrinte r=1