Thread: Edward Snowden and his stay in Russia

You drive me crazy Ramil! You know perfectly well that the USA is out of order yet you appear to be defending it on a technicality.

As for morality yes. I agree that it's an subjective term. Unless you decide you believe in a particular religion. I happen to think that Biblical morality is good and a reasonably standard for right and wrong. But you can't force this on others, it must be a personal choice. It was never intended to be foundation of national laws.

And the Bible doesn't exactly comment on the morality of spying on the whole world and saving+datamining it indefinitely.
That's my personal morality.

Perhaps it's covered in "Thou shalt not bear false witness" or "Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people." (I'm trying to think o something applicable from the bible...)

And yes, I value personal and religious morality OVER state morality. Christianity says that people should follow the laws of the land except when the contradict with Christianity. I think that makes sense. And I think Christianity is against all war, so killing anyone in the army, is wrong.

With this I am not saying that I am living a 100% biblical life, just that it's an external and objective sourse of morality that stands outside things like nation states and culture.

The state has burned women at the stake for witchcraft, discriminated against people because of religion or ideology, and been tools in the hands of corrupt rich people. I maintain that it's morally defendable to go against the state as Snowden did, if you are genuinely convinced that the state is acting immorally. What are we otherwise.... state drones.......?

And I don't believe for a second that the surveillance is protecting us from terrorism!

I think we are seeing the beginning of a fascist globalist dictatorship that will make 1984 look like child's play.
Or genuinely, the scenario from Revelation in the bible with antichrists empire and the mark of the beast without which you can't buy or sell.

For some reason, I missed this post.

Originally Posted by Hanna

You drive me crazy Ramil! You know perfectly well that the USA is out of order yet you appear to be defending it on a technicality.

I'm not defending USA per se. I'm defending people who live there.

Originally Posted by Hanna

I happen to think that Biblical morality is good and a reasonably standard for right and wrong.

Biblical morality is only good when you apply double (or even triple) standards over the same things. Bible has too much ambiguities and mutually contradictory statements to be a good guidebook on morality.

Originally Posted by Hanna

And yes, I value personal and religious morality OVER state morality.

Say that again - state morality? What's that? Besides, a state cannot exist if it respects every and all of its citizens. In order to function normally state now and then has to step on a few necks. Even a 'perfect state' from Utopia would have to do that - to do little evils for a greater good. What can be said about normal states? Your libertarian views can only function normally in anarchism but then again you wouldn't like that very much.

Originally Posted by Hanna

Christianity says that people should follow the laws of the land except when the contradict with Christianity. I think that makes sense. And I think Christianity is against all war, so killing anyone in the army, is wrong.

Epistle to the Romans (Paul), Chapter 13

Obedience in Authority.
1 Let every person be subordinate to the higher authorities, for there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been established by God.
2 Therefore, whoever resists authority opposes what God has appointed, and those who oppose it will bring judgment upon themselves.
3 For rulers are not a cause of fear to good conduct, but to evil. Do you wish to have no fear of authority? Then do what is good and you will receive approval from it,
4 for it is a servant of God for your good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for it does not bear the sword without purpose; it is the servant of God to inflict wrath on the evildoer.
5 Therefore, it is necessary to be subject not only because of the wrath but also because of conscience.
6 This is why you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, devoting themselves to this very thing.
7 Pay to all their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, toll to whom toll is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.


Please, do not bring Christianity to this. I will always prove you are wrong with the quotes from Bible

Originally Posted by Hanna

The state has burned women at the stake for witchcraft, discriminated against people because of religion or ideology, and been tools in the hands of corrupt rich people.

1. See above
2. It was not the state. It was people who did that.

Originally Posted by Hanna

And I don't believe for a second that the surveillance is protecting us from terrorism!

You may not believe it, but normal people never know when their intelligence succeeded. They know only its failures. Technically this helps to prevent many acts of terrorism (among other things, of course)

To cut it short - a modern day state simply cannot exist if it does not spy on its own people. Like it or not. Every state does it and every state will.