Thread: Edward Snowden and his stay in Russia

Originally Posted by maxmixiv

Listening to traffic is Okay in my opinion. Of course, until the collected data are used to harm honest citizens. Like when chief of the police is the major criminal of district.

Launching network attacks on the other hand is harmful and is a crime.

Well obviously nobody minds if they prevent a terrorist attack.

But at what price? And when will they start using it for other purposes? And even for those who trust their government; you don't know who'll be ruling the country in 5 years. It might be someone who wants to go after people precisely like you. And thanks to PRISM and similar programs they already have people's confessions, in their own words. Or the infrastructure to find out anyone's thoughts on anything they care to mention online.

Another perspective is that things like that are bound to get out of hand. First they look for terrorists, then for pedophiles... then for pirates...... economic criminal, industrial espionage, then ANYONE who somebody doesn't like.

Do you think it was okay that people's letters where opened and read at various points in Russia's past as well?
I don't see how this is any different. I think this is a principle and it doesn't matter who does it, or what they say their reasons are. It shouldn't be done!

But thanks to Edward Snowden, at least now we know it's going on as a matter of routine, in Western democracies.

And no, I've never really used Facebook, precisely because I don't want all my personal data in one location like that. Got an account but it's got hardly no info and I never enjoyed using it.

Fyi...
This aired August 2, 2012, it is from the HBO TV series Newsroom

It might be someone who wants to go after people precisely like you.

Can't believe this could happen is Sweden. In some countries - maybe. But it always surprised me, how quick the men, just had acquired the power could find and address their opponents. This is probably because their opponents are people who were in power for decades, and they left too much of paper work. So what can we do with Snowden or without: may be only amend to the constitution: "And your mail can and will be read." (And anywhere several video cameras will be pointed at you, of course)

And answering my own question: I still believe that all companies making biggest social networks just want the money. Nothing personal.

Originally Posted by maxmixiv

Can't believe this could happen is Sweden. In some countries - maybe. But it always surprised me, how quick the men, just had acquired the power could find and address their opponents. This is probably because their opponents are people who were in power for decades, and they left too much of paper work. So what can we do with Snowden or without: may be only amend to the constitution: "And your mail can and will be read." (And anywhere several video cameras will be pointed at you, of course)

And answering my own question: I still believe that all companies making biggest social networks just want the money. Nothing personal.

The companies do but they will sell it if they are greedy enough or let the Government obtain what they want. Most of them are owned by individuals or a few people or a few own and control the corporation.

Yeah, Sweden is one of the countries I could see easily violating all kinds of rights. They are another country in bed with the USA and their closest allies.

The internet is one of the last bastions of freedom so it's a threat to the Government and politicians so naturally, they would want all your info. People think, bah, it's just some facebook crap but talk about easily obtaining info. How often do they get the opportunity for FREE, VOLUNTARILY GIVEN information?!? People miss the big picture as usual.

BTW, Putin's lack of enthusiasm about Snowden being in Russia seriously makes me wonder what the deal is.

Is he under pressure from his "American partners"?
Does he have his own spy program of internet usage and secretly fears a Russian Snowden?
Or is he annoyed that Snowden doesn't seem particularly enthusiastic about being in Russia, instead preferring South America.

IMHO he ought to say that Snowden's done the world a favour and is obviously welcome to stay and get some protection. I guess it says something about Russia and Putin that doesn't make me feel very enthusiastic.

I wonder what would have happened if Snowden had gone to Ukraine or Belarus instead? Or Kazakhstan?

Originally Posted by Hanna

BTW, Putin's lack of enthusiasm about Snowden being in Russia seriously makes me wonder what the deal is.

Is he under pressure from his "American partners"?
Does he have his own spy program of internet usage and secretly fears a Russian Snowden?
Or is he annoyed that Snowden doesn't seem particularly enthusiastic about being in Russia, instead preferring South America.

IMHO he ought to say that Snowden's done the world a favour and is obviously welcome to stay and get some protection. I guess it says something about Russia and Putin that doesn't make me feel very enthusiastic.

American spy asks for asylum in Russia
It's so much a cliché that no wonder nobody wants to be a part of it
Thingerpointing is on the way

Originally Posted by Doomer

American spy asks for asylum in Russia
It's so much a cliché that no wonder nobody wants to be a part of it
Thingerpointing is on the way

Well, fair enough, I guess. But a lot of people and a lot of countries would have admired Russia for taking a stand.
If I was Snowden I'd pick Russia any day over South America.
The situation in South America seems so unstable. I mean, they are liberals one day, socialists the next... Then a pro USA military regime. One day a democracy, the next day next.

Snowden might find that just as he settled into Ecuador, Venezuela or Bolivia there is a military coup... Or in light of these countries practically being the playground backyard of the USA, he might simply get kidnapped or executed, even without a coup. He's safer in Russia! Or possibly China.

At least in Russia, there is more stability in the politics. (As people like to point out here.... it looks like the current government is here to stay, for better or worse) hey would not let themselves be caught out by a coup or allow Snowden to be kidnapped or executed.

Originally Posted by Deborski

American propaganda is the best in the world, in my opinion. Because Americans, by and large, still believe their country is the "land of the free" and even as their freedoms are being taken away in the name of "security" and this contrived "war on terror" they support the government, practically in lockstep.

Precisely my opinion. Congrats to you on not having drunk the kool-aid (to use an American expression, lol. The meaning being: Deborski did not believe the propaganda/hype. Such a good expression. )



And I wasn't going to rant anymore about this, but I just read in the paper today that Swedish fingerprints (which you have to leave to get a passport!!!) and DNA registers will be shared with the USA "in the fight for terrorism".
Yeah right.

Plus, when I questioned the need to give my fingerprint they told me "We added this to the new Biometric passports at the request of the USA. But your fingerprint will never be shared with anyone; it's just for security to identify that you are the rightful owner of your passport". At least they don't have my DNA yet, since I didn't commit any crimes.

How would you guys like it, if your country demanded your fingerprint, before they give you a passport allowing you to travel abroad. Then they make your fingerprint available to another country! http://www.dn.se/nyheter/sverige/usa...-fingeravtryck.

Ed Snowden is fighting this absolutely grotesque global Big Brother state. I am 100% behind him. As far as heroes of the internet are concerned, he is Number 1!

Originally Posted by Hanna

How would you guys like it, if your country demanded your fingerprint, before they give you a passport allowing you to travel abroad. Then they make your fingerprint available to another country!

You need to move to Russia, Hanna
Russia doesn't care about your fingerprints
Yet

Originally Posted by Doomer

You need to move to Russia, Hanna
Russia doesn't care about your fingerprints
Yet

Yeah, I think people are slightly freer in Russia, for the moment. Less invasion of privacy.
I've noticed here on MR and elsewhere that Russian people are just very cynical and sceptical, and probably wouldn't stand for too much invasion of privacy.

Plus, I think the society is a little more "old fashioned" in the bureacracy. It's easier to spy on people if you are using the very latest technology for everything and keep it in databases that can be cross-referenced between different authorities.

One thing I like about the UK though: You basically don't need an ID. I particularly like that for medical treatment.

But the creepiness is coming. For example when I wanted to buy a monthly train ticket I had to tell them my address. I asked them why and they couldn't respond. Just read in the paper that Oyster cards (smart travel cards in London) have been used 8000 times to catch criminal, because the police can pull out the record of where the person travelled.

Basically, privacy is dead and Snowden is the one who confirmed it.
You'd better have very mainstream opinions and behave within the norms of the "normal". Or you'll get picked up by data mining bots soon enough, and they can focus in on you.

And as for Russia: Well, the FSB was aware of the Tamerlan Tsarnaev's anti-West/pro-islam comments on social networking sites, right? So unless they stumbled across that by chance, they've got something going to keep an eye out for people.

Originally Posted by Hanna

...At least they don't have my DNA yet, since I didn't commit any crimes. ...

If any samples of blood for ANY reason have been drawn (hospital, dentist, clinics..etc) then guess again... The tentacles go way beyond what is generally known.

Originally Posted by Hanna

How would you guys like it, if your country demanded your fingerprint, before they give you a passport allowing you to travel abroad. Then they make your fingerprint available to another country! USA och Sverige byter fingeravtryck - DN.SE.

Ed Snowden is fighting this absolutely grotesque global Big Brother state. I am 100% behind him. As far as heroes of the internet are concerned, he is Number 1!

I think we are headed in that direction. DHS agents are already asking for blood at checkpoints on our highways so that they can record our DNA and save it in their extensive databases. For now, their requests are voluntary, but a few more years and who knows how voluntary it will be?

Soviet propaganda was built upon the blood of those who dared not to believe it; hypocrites who pretend not to understand that bring up nothing but irritation...

American propaganda is the best in the world, in my opinion. Because Americans, by and large, still believe their country is the "land of the free" and even as their freedoms are being taken away in the name of "security" and this contrived "war on terror" they support the government, practically in lockstep.

And yet, we now have "checkpoints" set up by the Department of Homeland Security on major highways, where you are required to pull over and give them your documentation and they will ask for samples of your blood.

We have a wall along the Mexican border which Senator John McCain recently bragged about, saying it is "bigger and better" than the Berlin Wall.

Our police agencies are starting to use drone aircraft for surveillance purposes. They have already been discussing arming the drone aircraft for use against US citizens too.

And those of us who speak out against these things are often called "unamerican" and "traitors."

I guess I am getting too old. I remember the old days when things like this were only supposed to happen in other countries. I was raised believing that these things only happened behind the Iron Curtain. I remember when Soviet spies requested asylum in the US and we granted it despite condemnation from the USSR.

But the US helped orchestrate the fall of the USSR (Charlie Wilson's war), and then the US stepped in to be the only remaining super-power, and rather than reduce weapons and defense spending we INCREASED it and went on the attack globally, all in the name of this "war on terror" which can never be won.

American propaganda is the best in the world because even the poorest American believes he is really just a millionaire in waiting, and that one day his ship will come in and he will be wealthy like Donald Trump. We believe that anyone can be famous or wealthy, if they just work hard enough. And maybe at one point that was true. I certainly believed it myself, growing up. But these days, the balance has shifted, and not everyone has the opportunity to make their dreams come true.

As George Orwell wrote in Animal Farm, "all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others." That book, by the way, was actually meant to symbolize the Russian revolution. But these days, it could just as easily symbolize America.

Snowden is young and idealistic, and he released the data to the public because he wanted us to know the vast extent of our government's surveillance operations. Most tellingly, he did not accept money for the data he released and if he had wanted, I am sure some government would have happily paid him off. So in my mind he is a hero, albeit a little impulsive and young. He probably should have planned the data release a little better so that he did not end up like Tom Hank in "The Terminal" - trapped in the transit zone at Sheremetevo with no passport and no country. Now he says that he is willing to accept Putin's conditions for asylum in Russia, which means he cannot release any more data. But if Putin accepts Snowden's asylum request, it could trigger another cold war between our countries, so it is a very tenuous position for Putin to be in and I do not envy him the decision.

America is the most powerful nation on earth, despite the growing economic problems we have on our domestic front, because our "defense" budget is ten times greater than Russia's. But our actions have changed and instead of exporting the American dream of freedom and back-yard barbeques we export death and destruction. Our government has grown arrogant and plays the part of "world police," sticking its nose into the affairs of other countries rather than fixing the growing problems we have back home.

I for one, fear the karma we are creating for ourselves...

Originally Posted by Deborski

American propaganda is the best in the world, in my opinion. Because Americans, by and large, still believe their country is the "land of the free" and even as their freedoms are being taken away in the name of "security" and this contrived "war on terror" they support the government, practically in lockstep.

And yet, we now have "checkpoints" set up by the Department of Homeland Security on major highways, where you are required to pull over and give them your documentation and they will ask for samples of your blood.

We have a wall along the Mexican border which Senator John McCain recently bragged about, saying it is "bigger and better" than the Berlin Wall.

Our police agencies are starting to use drone aircraft for surveillance purposes. They have already been discussing arming the drone aircraft for use against US citizens too.

And those of us who speak out against these things are often called "unamerican" and "traitors."

I guess I am getting too old. I remember the old days when things like this were only supposed to happen in other countries. I was raised believing that these things only happened behind the Iron Curtain. I remember when Soviet spies requested asylum in the US and we granted it despite condemnation from the USSR.

But the US helped orchestrate the fall of the USSR (Charlie Wilson's war), and then the US stepped in to be the only remaining super-power, and rather than reduce weapons and defense spending we INCREASED it and went on the attack globally, all in the name of this "war on terror" which can never be won.

American propaganda is the best in the world because even the poorest American believes he is really just a millionaire in waiting, and that one day his ship will come in and he will be wealthy like Donald Trump. We believe that anyone can be famous or wealthy, if they just work hard enough. And maybe at one point that was true. I certainly believed it myself, growing up. But these days, the balance has shifted, and not everyone has the opportunity to make their dreams come true.

As George Orwell wrote in Animal Farm, "all animals are equal, but some are more equal than others." That book, by the way, was actually meant to symbolize the Russian revolution. But these days, it could just as easily symbolize America.

Snowden is young and idealistic, and he released the data to the public because he wanted us to know the vast extent of our government's surveillance operations. Most tellingly, he did not accept money for the data he released and if he had wanted, I am sure some government would have happily paid him off. So in my mind he is a hero, albeit a little impulsive and young. He probably should have planned the data release a little better so that he did not end up like Tom Hank in "The Terminal" - trapped in the transit zone at Sheremetevo with no passport and no country. Now he says that he is willing to accept Putin's conditions for asylum in Russia, which means he cannot release any more data. But if Putin accepts Snowden's asylum request, it could trigger another cold war between our countries, so it is a very tenuous position for Putin to be in and I do not envy him the decision.

America is the most powerful nation on earth, despite the growing economic problems we have on our domestic front, because our "defense" budget is ten times greater than Russia's. But our actions have changed and instead of exporting the American dream of freedom and back-yard barbeques we export death and destruction. Our government has grown arrogant and plays the part of "world police," sticking its nose into the affairs of other countries rather than fixing the growing problems we have back home.

I for one, fear the karma we are creating for ourselves...

Karma isn't something a bunch of people share, everyone has a karma of their own; I like the individualistic approach that lets me think this way, and so do most of the Americans; do you, Deb?

Originally Posted by Deborski

But if Putin accepts Snowden's asylum request, it could trigger another cold war between our countries, so it is a very tenuous position for Putin to be in and I do not envy him the decision.

Are you sure? Your favourite network makes it sound like Putin is doing his own thing:

Russia in largest war games since Soviet era - CNN.com

I don't think the U.S. could do much to Russia if they decided to process Snowden's request. I disagree with the statement (said by whom? You or Hanna), that Putin should make some sort of statement and be enthusiastic about doing so. No, he doesn't have to make any statement but just go by the law (haha - I know). It's that simple. Instead, he's an opportunist, nothing else. He stands up to the U.S. about Syria (well, sorta) and other issues but not this one.

Both the Soviet Union and the USSA (if you watch youtube videos, many people call the USA this) are both good at propaganda. Putin still knows how to work it (former KGB / FSB after all).

Originally Posted by 14Russian

Are you sure? Your favourite network makes it sound like Putin is doing his own thing:

Russia in largest war games since Soviet era - CNN.com

I don't think the U.S. could do much to Russia if they decided to process Snowden's request. I disagree with the statement (said by whom? You or Hanna), that Putin should make some sort of statement and be enthusiastic about doing so. No, he doesn't have to make any statement but just go by the law (haha - I know). It's that simple. Instead, he's an opportunist, nothing else. He stands up to the U.S. about Syria (well, sorta) and other issues but not this one.

Both the Soviet Union and the USSA (if you watch youtube videos, many people call the USA this) are both good at propaganda. Putin still knows how to work it (former KGB / FSB after all).

Well, maybe Snowden had a feeling that exactly this would happen, whereas I imagined that Russia would actually think it was cool to give the USA a taste of its own medicine. The USA is forever on about "human rights" in Russian, tries to imagine military aggressiveness where there is none, and alluding that the media in Russia is state controlled "by Putin"....etc, etc.

Here, Russia could have been the country standing up for human rights, freedom of speech and against government corruption in another country.

However, it sounds like the fear of echoes from the Cold War, lukewarm interest and suspicion from the public in Russia, and the relationship with the "American partners" weighs stronger.

Whatever the Russian public thinks is fine by me -- maybe I was naive in thinking people would take an interest and support it.

Also, I think Edward Snowden was a little naive. If he wanted Russia's support, he should have gone straight there and appealed to the public. If he fancied a life in South America, then why go to Hong Kong first? I really don't get why he went there at all. Perhaps it was not planned out at all, but he simply reacted without having all the fact and weighing the alternative.

Originally Posted by Seraph

If any samples of blood for ANY reason have been drawn (hospital, dentist, clinics..etc) then guess again... The tentacles go way beyond what is generally known.

Have you actually got any proof for that? It sounds a bit far-fetched...

Originally Posted by Hanna

Have you actually got any proof for that? It sounds a bit far-fetched...

This is what stealth is all about.

Originally Posted by 14Russian

Are you sure? Your favourite network makes it sound like Putin is doing his own thing:

Russia in largest war games since Soviet era - CNN.com

I don't think the U.S. could do much to Russia if they decided to process Snowden's request. I disagree with the statement (said by whom? You or Hanna), that Putin should make some sort of statement and be enthusiastic about doing so. No, he doesn't have to make any statement but just go by the law (haha - I know). It's that simple. Instead, he's an opportunist, nothing else. He stands up to the U.S. about Syria (well, sorta) and other issues but not this one.

Both the Soviet Union and the USSA (if you watch youtube videos, many people call the USA this) are both good at propaganda. Putin still knows how to work it (former KGB / FSB after all).

Erm.... I do not watch CNN.... not sure how/why you think it is "my favorite network." I've mainly been following The Guardian UK on the Snowden case, as well as some other UK and Russian news sites.

Russia could finally retaliate to Viktor Bout's illegal imprisonment

You'd better have very mainstream opinions and behave within the norms of the "normal". Or you'll get picked up by data mining bots soon enough, and they can focus in on you.

I guess I'm screwed then

Also, according to this Russian article, US Senator John McCain (who a few weeks ago bragged that America's Mexican border wall is now "bigger and better" than the Berlin wall) is pushing to boycott the Olympics in Sochi if Russia does not hand Snowden over to the US.

I think that we are rapidly approaching the edge of another Cold War.

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