Quote Originally Posted by Crocodile View Post
There's nothing subjective about women and children dead from hunger as a result of the Collectivization of the 1930s. Nothing like that ever happened in the evil Capitalism. However, you still find a way to call the Politics a subjective thing and ignore all proofs. Basically, you prefer to ignore anything that does not match your perception of reality. All I want from you at this point is to take your word back and openly declare that the Politics is not subjective and there are proofs and there might be facts that could serve as objective proofs. We'll take it from there.
Give me your formula, Crocodile. It's absolutely not only incorrect, but impossible, that ALL OF POLITICS IS OBJECTIVE. Man alive! - thousands of years of human history show that it is a largely subjective field, and the amount of witness testimony to that fact across the face of the earth is GARGANTUAN. From the Sun Tsu to Machiavelli to the 10,000 writers on the subjects of politics and economics that have put pen to paper since... Not one has been able to transmute the subjective into the objective... There is no more way to enumerate the immeasurable than to perpetuate finite motion. Both have been tried, but never succeeded at.

So, you want Hanna to take back her opinion. First, *I* want to see a mathematical formula. I want to see the objective nature of politics. Show me how all elections, all human leadership, is a foregone conclusion that a chess computer could predict. While you're at it, maybe you could use your magical objective formula to calculate for me who the next ten presidents of the us and prime ministers of the uk would be. Then we could all make a mint by placing bets.

I have a feeling your answer will be somewhat less than what I'm expecting. But then, that's my opinion... which is subj-- well, I'd better not say.

And even in your example there IS something subjective. People died: Objective. "As a result of " --> SUBjective. I could create an argument, also subjective, by saying that those people died as a result of their not violently rebelling against those who were in the way of their acquisition of survival. I could say they died as a result of not foreseeing the future adequately and preparing for it. (I won't, because I don't believe those things; they are only examples.) But they are valid arguments in that they are as non-objective as your own, and so impossible to numerically nullify like one would the remainder in a division problem. The interpretation of a human mind, who seeks a responsible cog in the machine, biases and prioritizes his information such that he can fulfilll his own prophesy, and see it as objective. It doesn't make 'x' become '4' just because you will it to be so.

But even in those words it's obvious. If you can SEE it one way, and I can SEE it another, how is it objective? If we both SEE the number 4, neither of us can argue that it's really not 4, but 230,000. We SEE the objective. You, my friend, look at the subjective and you SEE objective. But you're misleading yourself.

And there IS no 'objectively correct' policy. All the objective variables are defined by and dependent upon SUBjective ones.

The future is always subjective, because it is not limited to numerical influence, but also receives direction from emotional, psychological and spiritual human input. Any man who could objectify this into a formula, and calculate the future of politics, would wield a power nigh unto clairvoyance.